From CIA to Chairside: Reaction Episode (289)

“Presence is power—but not the kind people fear. It’s the kind that earns trust.” ~Dr. Maggie Augustyn

In this reaction episode to Moment 207 of The Diary of a CEO, the Productive Dentist Podcast team unpacks CIA communication strategies through the lens of patient care, team dynamics, and clinical leadership.

It’s not about reading minds, it’s about showing up with purpose.

This episode challenges dentists to move beyond scripted case presentations and into emotionally intelligent leadership that patients and teams can feel. The result? More trust. More buy-in. More fulfillment.

You’ll learn:

• How to use behavioral awareness to become a better listener and leader
• What makes patients truly say “yes” and what silently pushes them away
• Why ethical influence matters more than persuasion
• How to lead your team with calm clarity, not chaos
• Why trust is your most underutilized productivity tool

This isn’t manipulation. This is human connection done right.

Key Reflection Questions for Listeners:

• Am I showing up in a way that builds trust or creates doubt?
• What small moments of communication carry the most weight in my day?
• Where in my practice am I using persuasion when I should be using presence?

Listen now to rewire how you lead, listen, and influence with integrity.

TRANSCRIPT

Descript

[00:00:00] Regan Robertson: Did you know that manipulation and motivation are two sides of the same coin? How do you know if you’re manipulating somebody or you’re motivating somebody? That was the question posed on Diary of a CEO podcast, which is a little, uh, podcast that I listen to. I’m a fervent podcast listener as I am podcast host, and I asked my faithful, talented, brilliant co-hosts, Dr. Chad Johnson and Maggie Augustine, if they would give this podcast to listen uh, moments 2 0 7 on diary of A CEO, uh, on this topic and then let us have a react to it. And they obliged kindly because they’re the best of friends and we are here to dive into this and discuss this and how it shows up in the denim world. Maggie and Chad, hi.

[00:00:55] Dr. Chad Johnson: Hello. How you, how are you been?

[00:00:59] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I’m doing great. And when it comes to this idea of motivating and manipulating, I, I mean yes, of course it’s present in the dental world. It’s interesting. Maybe it’s even present as we’re. You know, considering treatment planning with our patients, but it’s, we’re also personally affected, um, by it in our, in our personal lives. Right. How does it play out? Um, they do a, a short stint about lying about whether or not we’re being lied to, and then they, they talk about, um, teaching, teaching how to lie. What did you think about that, Chad?

[00:01:36] Dr. Chad Johnson: First off, in general, I didn’t know what to make of the episode much. I think my awareness of that is really low. So, um, but what I thought about, uh, he did mention that, uh, they need to have liars in the first place for the best, CIA, um, you know, manipulators or whatever, that they need to be inherent liars in the first place to be able to get them to be better liars. Um, and so that’s one thing that I picked up on was that, uh, you know, it’s just like, well, not everyone’s good at this and the people who are all fidgety and, and stuff like that, they’re easy to tell, but you almost have to get to know people and ask questions and know what their baseline norm is. It’s almost like with us taking blood pressures when we don’t need it, so that way when we do need it, we can tell that things are off, uh, that a lot of people don’t get to see but that’s a tangible thing where we’re checking physiologically into people with their pulse and their blood pressure and stuff like that to be able to see, you know, like what’s normal so that way you can tell when it’s deviated from normal.

[00:02:46] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: So, so what they’re saying is you can’t really tell if somebody is lying by just looking at them,

[00:02:50] Dr. Chad Johnson: Right.

[00:02:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: You have to kind of know them to then figure out whether they’re lying and compare it to their baseline behavior. Like this idea of, well, if you’re looking to the left, that means that you’re engaging the creative part of your brain, and that must mean that you’re lying. What they’re saying is that in the Western culture, we have a timeline that goes from left to right. And if you’re thinking back to past events, the reason why you’re looking to the left is because timeline starts in the left. So if you’re thinking back to your childhood, your eyes are gonna go to the left. ’cause you’re thinking in the way that the timeline is, is is that that’s how we understand time, right. Starting in the left and going to the right. Regan, what was it about this podcast that, that got you magnetized ’cause you and I talked about it a little bit and I, I, I mean my, my juices were flowing right when you and I started talking about it.

[00:03:40] Regan Robertson: Well, for, for context, I, it, it’s, um, Steven Bartlett who’s interviewing former Covert CIA officer. Like what? CIA officer, by the way, isn’t covert, I would assume they’re all covert. Andrew Busta Manti, I think is how you say his last name. I’ve actually seen him all over tiktoks and social media in little viral clips and didn’t realize because it wasn’t a video podcast that I was listening to that that’s the gentleman. So if you, if you Google him, you will likely have seen him come up in your reels or, or whatnot and, um, what immediately grab what grabbed my attention was this concept that motivation and manipulation are part of the same, um strategies. So, and, and so for me it really came down to intent. Uh, what is your intent to, uh, to deceive or, or to, um, you know, or to inspire and I, I thought that was a really, I haven’t heard it presented that way before and I thought that his RICE acronym was extremely, uh, easy to understand and I was able to apply it in my own life to how I use it, and it made me think deeper.

[00:04:56] Dr. Chad Johnson: Um, wait a minute. Rice acronym for the listeners. Why don’t we share what we learned? That that got a laugh. Wait a minute.

[00:05:08] Regan Robertson: Those are the four areas that you can tap into in order to, uh, influence somebody to do what it is that you want them to do and I think lying was the precursor to that because if you are manipulating, or if you’re being covert, it sounds to me like you’re gonna use this acronym, uh, you know, uh in a, in a sort of devious way and not to skip over the lying portion of it though, Maggie, uh, I, I was quite surprised when he was talking about eye eye movement and you can’t always tell, um, by somebody’s eye movement that, that blew my mind as well and then, uh, also. The watching for, for disruptions in, in patterns. Like, like if the body language is showing up super confident, but the way someone’s speaking does not show up confident. Those are some of the ways, and I think about, uh, I think about sitting in the dental chair, for example, and I think about the time when I was nodding my head yes and, and telling the doctor I was gonna go through with treatment and in my head it was a, it was a definite no. There was, there was, if. I think if this CIA officer was looking at me, he probably could have freeze framed me and explained, you know, her body language is saying this, but, but her words are saying this, like, there must be a disconnect. So, so I, I think teaching people to lie using lies in one, in one way or another. I think everybody lies to an extent and I think this, this to an extent,

[00:06:26] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Not to an extend, everybody lies doesn’t every

[00:06:28] Regan Robertson:Yeah, I was gonna say, everybody lies and so this acronym, rice is these four areas and it’s, uh, reward, ideology, coercion and ego and the idea is you play to one or all of these different, um strategies or, or influence levers, if you will, to, um, to appeal to that person to win honorable favor, to get them to do what it is that you want them to do.

[00:07:05] Dr. Chad Johnson: And you don’t necessarily have to manipulate to, um, involve yourself into, into the person’s rice, uh, you know, primaries and secondaries and stuff like that but, you know, if, if, ’cause they were talking about if, if they themselves are going to, you know, “I want to be a good American and go vote.” Well, you don’t have to coerce them to go vote because they are already believing to go vote. So like your job’s done.

[00:07:35] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And so, so this RICE acronym is actually used a lot in television. There’s a show that I really liked, which was Madame’s Secretary and one of the main characters is a CIA operator and so they were trying to use that and they actually named them, um, they were trying to get one of, one of the people to do whatever they, you know, to appeal to him, to, to get them to work for the United States government but what was interesting is he asked, um, the CIA guy to rate these, right? And, and so which one is the most effective in getting someone to do what you want them to do and I think before he gave the answer, I was thinking that coercion was going to be the most powerful, right? Like really, I, I, I did like, so yesterday we had Amy Wood come in to do HIPAA and cybersecurity in our office, and she talked to us about TikTok and how TikTok is recording everything, and it freaked me out. I’ve never had TikTok on my phone. So I’m like, great now everybody is, is, is listening to me. So like now, I, I mean, I don’t have a whole lot of secrets. Most, most people know all my secrets, but, but if there is a secret somewhere out there and I’ve spoken it on the phone, then somebody has it, right? So now they’re going to want, now they’re going to get me to do something based on this one recording and I’ll do kind of anything to keep my family safe. Let’s say if there’s a secret of me doing something that I shouldn’t be doing, and so, so I thought that, that, that was going to be number one and because that’s what you see in the movies, right? They’ll get you to do, they’ll get you to blow up a building because they’re, you know, holding something over your head. Um, I, but, but he, but he said that that was not the, the most powerful way to get someone to do what you wanted to do, and that the movies are the ones that are projecting that narrative. Um, Chad, do you remember?

[00:09:34] Dr. Chad Johnson: It’s the most dramatic,

[00:09:36] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: It’s the, it is the most dramatic right? Although, I mean, look, if, if you’ve got my kid, that certainly is going to be more powerful than you’re hold. If you’re holding onto my secret of some notes that I passed onto, you know, um, I don’t know. Something that I was, not, that I was doing that I wasn’t supposed to be doing. Sure. Um, do you remember there the right how?

[00:09:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: I don’t remember. So my guess is gonna be the ego.

[00:10:01] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Okay. Reagan, do you remember them? Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah, I, I remember them too.

[00:10:08] Regan Robertson: Like, they’re, they’re in my heart. Go ahead. It’s classic StoryBrand. So I think you asked a little bit ago why this was so intriguing to me. And it’s classic, it’s classic StoryBrand and it’s also classic, uh, skip Miller, uh, who did M three learning and so it’s, it’s sales training and it’s story training and so it’s. It’s very easy. It’s, it’s mission based and it’s understanding someone’s deeper why and I like what you were saying about TikTok, Maggie, but it is, um, ideology number one, what a person believes. Think about the religious wars. Think about what we hold near and dear to our hearts at the closest core level. You can get somebody to do something when they are involved in a mission that they believe in. So their beliefs are the biggest, strongest driver. Um, I believe that ego was number two and, uh, and the, the example given was Mother Theresa, which I absolutely loved because I don’t think of ego as necessarily a bad thing.Um, when I think of ego personally, I think of what, how does that person wanna be perceived to the world? Like, what do they want to be known for? I don’t think that that’s necessarily a good or a bad thing, but it’s important to understand how that person wants to be perceived and I use this in marketing all the time because I think of the person I’m marketing to as the hero of the story. So what are their core beliefs, and then what do they wanna be perceived as? That is their transformation. We wanna hit that and then number three is reward and that’s do this, get this, that’s where the, come to the conference, win a raffle or something, that’s the third and then coercion is actually the last and so I’m, I’m surprised that you really did think that coercion was first, but he, Andrew said most people in Hollywood, like they often, they often, um, mess it up, but once, once you threaten someone to that extent with maybe the blackmail or, um, whatever. It’s, you can do at once, but they’re never gonna trust you again. So if you’ve got a, a long-term mission, which I assume, you know, if you’re in the CIA, you probably have missions that are years long in the making, then you’ve, you’ve gotta play a much longer game. So coercion is the weakest of them. Yeah.

[00:12:13] Dr. Chad Johnson: And regarding that, when I think about, um ego and I think about false humility as one example where people, when he was talking about, you know, regardless of whether it’s. Proud or humble, you know, or a hundred other emotions. Right? You know, that, that when people do the false humility thing, like sometimes they’re like, “Well, I just, I think it was, you know, I’m just not that good at it, but like, I just tried and, you know, it’s really a team effort. And, but we, I mean, we knocked it outta the park, but it was, it was in spite of me because it was just amazing and,” and stuff like that. I’m just like, people like. Uh, they almost seem to go outta their way to, because they’re, they’re getting to frame in the compliment, they’re getting to frame how they want to be viewed.

[00:13:03] Regan Robertson: Yes.

[00:13:05] Dr. Chad Johnson: So it goes along that Mother Theresa line, even though Mother Theresa was doing wonderful things for, you know, the orphanage, this and that and whatever. But then, you know, like, but, but again, she had a view that she was portraying and wanted to be seen as doing. It wasn’t, um, it wasn’t hidden out of sight. I mean, Jesus in the New Testament talks about that. Don’t let the right left hand know what the right hand is doing. It’s just like it, there should be a, a hidden nature to the, the goodness of what you’re doing, which is also tough. ’cause when people say, for example, you know, when they’re like, you know, churchy people don’t donate as much as, as unc churchy people and it’s just like, no, what’s recorded, isn’t, isn’t as visible about what churchy people might do versus UNC churchy people that are like, “Hey, I’m gonna put this on my tax form. I did this and that because it’s all above the board, and what’s it to me?” And then, but like my wife and I talk about this where it’s just like, I mean, there’s a lot of hidden stuff that won’t get recorded. About stuff that people do for other people and, um, uh, you know, that doesn’t get counted towards, you know, if the IRS is trying to figure out who’s more generous, you know, uh, churchy people or unchurched people. It’s just one example where I’m just like, uh, I don’t think that I, there’s some kind of bias there that actually leans it to be more neutral in my opinion than, uh, than, you know, what, um, uh, reality is. So.

[00:14:35] Regan Robertson: I think it’s interesting when we talk public and private, there’s um, uh, I don’t know if Skip Miller coined term three levels of why, but I pay attention to three levels of why and, uh, when I’m interviewing people or developing a brand, especially, uh, there is that public persona, which to me is the ego, is how people want to be perceived, and that’s the suit that we all put on. Um, Maggie is an enigma to me and I, and this particular podcast and why I brought it to you both was because in, uh, in that episode, Andrew explains that there’s a public life of a person, a private life of a person, and then there is a secret life and everybody has all three things. Uh, I’ve known for years about technology listening to people, and, um, you know, that, tha things could be recorded and, and it definitely puts you at a more heightened sense and, and I didn’t understand though, if that’s human nature to have a secret side and a private side, and then your public side, why you would, why you would hold it so closely to yourself for example, uh, you know, your public life is, is how you look on camera. For example, if you dress up and you wanna wear a suit, private life is just those, those few things inside the people who really know you, uh, know that you eat, you know, you eat cookies in bed or something and then the secret life is, you know, maybe specific traumas that you’ve suffered that you don’t want people to know about. Um, something that could be considered shameful that you don’t wanna bring to light and Maggie. Is like passionately running towards, uh, sharing private to the verge of secret even I would say, uh, she just is saying, I’m gonna strip myself bare for the world to see and and that to me is, um, fascinating, Maggie, that you, that you do that and I, I think my, my new puzzle is, is really asking myself, what, what motivates a person to do that? And then I’m starting to run. The RICE acronym, you know, through me and I think it gets back to again, um, how we wanna be perceived in the world and what we wanna accomplish together. Um, I think that it, it, it matters and so when I interview people, I try to, uh, ingratiate myself and build a connection that’s genuinely strong enough. So I understand their private side, but not their secret side. So if I’m getting to know someone, I wanna know, um, I wanna know you with the business suit, often the casual clothes on so that I can get to some of your deeper core levels of why, because when we’re developing brands, that is essential. When you talk about authentic marketing, it’s essential, it matters. That’s the, to me, that’s where the fascia of like human connection lives and we can build out reward systems and we can play to the ideology and all of that in our, in, in the way that we develop brands and the way that I tell stories and share messages and whatnot but I don’t wanna go so far that I get into secret and I think that’s where, um, like the CIA, they have to go there and that’s where the blackmail comes into play and, and they use it for really strong, uh, strong reasons and so, but in everyday life you don’t need that. I don’t know. What did, what did you think Maggie?

[00:17:44] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Secret is, is, um. Secret is interesting because when you get to that place of secrecy, you, you be, and, and he said this, you share a bond that is unbreakable. Right. And to get to the secret part, you have to share something also and that’s not easy for everybody to do and then, and then the other, and then the other part of it is that when you share something, there’s a chance that you’re gonna get hurt. I mean, like there’s, you have to give something and then somebody can take it and, and, um, and there’s a chance for coercion. Mm-hmm. Like there’s things that I have shared with people that I haven’t shared publicly and those relationships, those friendships have really been damaged and these people can come back and, and, and knowing what they know about me, these secrets, I, you know, they can shame me while I’m on stage from the audience. Um, and, and I, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe that’s why I’m letting out all, all my secrets. I don’t want anybody holding anything over me, right? Like if I let go of all my secrets, nobody can ever coerce me. I’ll be free.

[00:19:07] Regan Robertson: You know, that’s like Eminem’s tactic. That was in his rap lyrics that he made. That was one of his strategies was I’ll make fun of myself. I will just share my dirty laundry myself, and then you can’t use it against me.

[00:19:17] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Right, there’s, there’s something very freeing. And then the other thing that I am told is that not being able to keep a secret or not, or, or just airing your own dirty laundry is a trauma response that’s not entirely healthy. Um, and I don’t know how I feel about that. Uh, to me, letting go of the dark shadows that I have in me has been very healthy and very healing. And the, the healthcare providers that I have around me have confirmed that, um, stuffing them deep inside was less healthy than letting them go but, but sharing secrets, um, I mean it’s, it’s, it’s a deeper connection than sleeping with someone. Um, when you’re, when you’re able, when, when you’re, when you become that safe space for someone, um, and they become that safe space for you, that you’re like, you’re like almost, I don’t know, crossing planes of consciousness and, and, and multiverse. You, you can connect in an entirely different level. That is my experience. I I, I don’t know if the two of you, um,

[00:20:30] Dr. Chad Johnson: Well, I, I would liken it to. That’s why sexuality is one form of intimacy, but intimacy is greater than sexuality itself. Um, and no, what you guys are saying resonates with me. I mean, that secrecy, um, has, um, merit or value to it and that, you know, you are, you are allowing that to be, um, you, you have to guard that, uh, uh, for who you’re, you’re trusting and you can’t just inherently trust everyone and when you do trust someone, there is a reward to trusting them and then them mutually keeping that trust. So,

[00:21:18] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And that doesn’t always work out. Right, because relationships aren’t

[00:21:21] Dr. Chad Johnson: No, which is why we guard secrets otherwise, why don’t, why don’t we just make everything public? And it’s like, I don’t know if that’s healthy. I, I think it’s up to everyone’s discretion to. In this world of, um, it’s an experiment, you know, where you, your life gets to be an experiment where you get to test out whether you are right or wrong in the end and it’s messy because we don’t know whether to trust the people that we share or don’t share everything with. There could be, there could be a negative consequence to not sharing and entrusting with someone. Um, I had a patient yesterday who came in, and I, and I’ve known him for a long time as an acquaintance, and I, I, he came in and I said, you know, so what, what, what’s your concern? And he said, well, you’re the dentist. Tell me. And I just thought it was kind of weird because like he was guarded and, you know, like that, that makes it tough and, and all of a sudden the wall went up three bricks high and, you know, and, and it’s just like, oh, you know the, what do you like, you know, like, help me out. What, like, what do you want? You know, like, what, what’s concerning you? Like, let’s start at a, a starting point. Now, if his concern was, I don’t wanna bias you, you know, take a look and tell me what you find. Fair enough but it was just weird the way that he said it, and it, it did kind of, uh, uh, put up a wall, um, in, in, in that dynamic right there ’cause I was just like, uh,

[00:22:54] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like almost resentful.

[00:22:56] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yes.

[00:22:57] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like, like, like, yeah. Like, um, I’m not [00:23:00] gonna tell you this is a test for you.

[00:23:02] Dr. Chad Johnson: Right. I, it was just, he said, “I’ve got a few teeth with root canals and I, I just want ’em all pulled.” I said, “Okay, are they bothering you?” “No, I just don’t trust, I don’t trust, uh, anything I hear anymore. I just want to get it out,” and I was like, “Well, according to the, the X-ray that we took, it looks like you have one tooth with root cannot treatment,” and he goes, “Nope, I got more than that.” And so it’s just like, all right, this is weird.

[00:23:32] Regan Robertson: You know, like all the days go. He was the dental office. Do you think he was lying?

[00:23:35] Dr. Chad Johnson: No. Okay. No, I think he was nervous and this was his response of, you know, like, of having, um, un uncomfortability to the whole appointment. You know, this is how uncomfortable patients are, and so he’s gonna project that into the whole situation. It’s just one example all week long, how dentists are not, you run across people where you’re like, “Well, where. Where is this trust level going to go with patients?” And, and Reagan, I think that’s why you invited us to listen to this is figure out, okay, are we being good clinicians when we listen to our patients and figure out what’s their motivation in trying to get healthy in trying to keep their bill as low as possible in trying to have as little as pain as possible, what’s their point? And you know, um, also coercion when every dentist has to choose when a patient says, is this going to hurt? And you have to think about whether you say, “Of course it is, or no, of course it’s not,” or somewhere in between. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:44] Regan Robertson: I absolutely love this because I didn’t realize that the po, it’s poignant. It’s a poignant point that you bring up because already just being a dentist, you have a boulder that you’re pushing uphill. Just the connotation that’s associated with dentistry. But right now in our culture, in the United States especially, obviously can’t speak for everyone. I’ll just speak for myself. Sometimes I just don’t. Media. Take the media. Take media at, at large and the political landscape. There are days when I say I don’t know what to believe. I don’t know how to fact check. I don’t understand. And I believe that that is probably by design that that’s created that way and so I, I have not before thought of when you have that subconsciously running in your head and then you start applying it to the other areas of your life, how much more difficult your job just got in addition to it being a challenge and, and yes, absolutely, how do clinicians build an authentic connection in a way that’s not manipulative, but instead motivating and encouraging and, uh, you know, in addition to all the other things that you have to be including clinically proficient. Uh, it, it is, it’s, it’s a challenge right now, and healthcare in general is a challenge, but that makes it even, even more difficult.

[00:25:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah.

[00:25:59] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I really hope that we have a chance to, um, record a podcast about the challenges of being a clinician because on one hand we do have to, it, it is our primary role and goal to look out for the health of our patient and to be compassionate. Um, and the way that the profession presents itself and we knew that we were going to end up in this place. We have associates that are graduating with a ton of debt, right, and nobody on this planet can, can tell me and with, let’s talk about ego on this, right? And, and maybe ego is not the right term, or perhaps reward is a better term. If we’re going to talk about motivation, let’s talk about the motivation of the clinician as they make the decision. So you have a patient and your job is to look for their best interest, but can you really tell me that when you are half a million dollar in debt and don’t have the money to make that enormous mortgage payment on that debt, you are not going to be guided by that mortgage payment to present treatment to, in some way coerce or motivate. That patient to put your words in a certain way to present the treatment plan for that patient, um, in, in pursuing, in, in, in, in allowing them to shape their mind to choose one treatment modality over another. I mean, how many more articles can be written? Not just dental magazines, but in the publicized media that goes to the patient saying that natural teeth are being replaced by, you know, all on X and implants. So that instead of placing a couple of crowns, were were selling $50,000, 60 or $70,000 treatment plants. The, this is everywhere and, and this is the difference between motivation and manipulation and, and a lot of that rests on our own integrity, but we fight that integrity because of, of the life that we’re living also, I mean, this, this is such a complicated issue.

[00:28:16] Regan Robertson: This has a lot of, uh, many deep layers to it, right? ’cause you’re held to ethical standards and so I think if I’m hearing you well, you’re saying even. If consciously, everyone is saying Yes, we adhere to the ethical standards. We have integrity. We understand what that means, but then there might be a subconscious driver that’s, that’s motivating us to, um, to think a little differently about how, how treatment is presented or why treatment is presented.

[00:28:44] Dr. Chad Johnson: Well, for example, everyone has signed up to get a driver’s license agreeing to obey the civil and traffic laws and everything, but when you need to get your kids somewhere or you need to get somewhere, that stop sign becomes more of a quick little, uh, and you know, but you, you have a retired person that’s in front of you and they have all day long to get to the hardware store. W

[00:29:12] Regan Robertson: Oh, you are speaking my town’s language right now. Dad, thank. Oh, thank you. Yes. It’s always the hardware store.

[00:29:18] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yes and, and they have to go three times a day, but, um, ask how I know.

[00:29:24] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Five minutes apart, right?

[00:29:26] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah, exactly. Ask how I know. And, but you know, they’re driving five under the speed limit and, and so, you know, it’s just like, okay, I guess we’ve all agreed to go the speed limit, but. Then we all kind of go, well, but I mean it’s two over, it’s five, over it’s 10, whatever your number is, you know, and you watch people in the neighborhood at times, you know, where it’s just like that, I” don’t know if that quite counts as a stop,” you know, like that’s gonna need to be more stopping next time than, than yielding. Um, and it goes along that line where yes, we have ethics, but. Uh, but even as people, we all are citizens. We all have ethics that we’re supposed to, you know, drive the, the, you know, according to the speed limit and this and that, but it’s just like, but we’re not perfect at it. So we all lie, we all, uh, we all lie to the government that we’re going to drive the best we can and we don’t. So it’s just another example where we all lie. We’re, we’re untrue to a perfect standard.

[00:30:26] Regan Robertson: Maggie, what’s your final thoughts on this?

[00:30:31] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I, I mean, I, it’s a little, we got a little low, right? We, we got a little low with the, with, with the lies and the manipulation and the motivation. I, I think part of the uplifting part of the podcast is that when you use the RICE acronym, acronym, right? Which is reward, um, what was the second one?

[00:30:56]  Regan Robertson: Ideology,

[00:30:57] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Ideology, coercion and ego. You can use that for good.

[00:30:58]  Regan Robertson: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:59] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: You can use that to motivate and, um, when he was talking about that, I, I thought about that in my leadership with my team and how can I use that to better myself as a leader in the way that I listen to my team members. How can I redesign the job descriptions that they have? How can I redesign what they do on an everyday basis to uplift them, to redesign the reward system to play off of their ideologies, to create an environment in which they can find themselves or find a joy, um, in, in, in serving the patients and I, and I think when you start to contrast manipulation into motivation, it, it stops being so dark but we, but we do, we, we live, we live in a world that has both, because you can’t see the light unless you’ve been in the dark. You can’t appreciate the light un unless you know, you’ve, you, you’ve been in the mud. Um, and, and, and so that, that’s how I would find the positive spin in it and continue using the RICE acronym in, in, in finding motivation, both within yourself. Find, find the times that you are yourself, coercing yourself right into, into doing some, I don’t know, displeasing things are the way that even you, you, you use self-talk.

[00:32:32] Dr. Chad Johnson: Mm-hmm. Um,mm-hmm.

[00:32:33] Regan Robertson: I, I, my, I, I thought the whole, the whole episode for me, I saw it from a positive light for sure. So, and, and that, again, let’s, let’s talk about ego. That plays to my own ego because I don’t think I’ve ever heard anything broken down this way on how to motivate and my ego wants to be known as a good leader. I wanna be seen as a good leader. I want, I want my team to feel like I have their back and that I advocate for them, and that I help them fulfill their own mission. So I’ve got like two, two tangibles that I, that I do often. Three. I’ve got three tangibles that I do often. Wait, what?

[00:33:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: Four?

[00:33:07] Regan Robertson: No, I’m just three. Well, because this is a fail and a and a win, right? So if I, if I show up to a one-on-one with a team member and I am under a time crunch or a deadline, basically I have something I want to have accomplished and I put myself in the, the driver’s seat, that one-on-one is not gonna go very well. It’s just not. So what I’ve learned over the years is before I get on that one-on-one, so before you meet with your team, I ask myself what’s in it for them? So as counterintuitive that as that is, I say what is in it for them and I try to, to perceive what’s in it for them. For example, uh, yesterday I called, uh, one of my like an imaging place. I had to get an X-ray done and they build the wrong insurance. So I had to have them switch it to a different insurance. I called and my daughter was listening and I, you know, I said hello and, and explained the situation. It was handled really easily, and when I hung up, my daughter [00:34:00] said, “Oh, you used like your podcast voice,” and I was like, “what do you, Hey, now you use my podcast voice,” And then I said, “That was by intention. Actually, you know why I, I uptick my voice was because usually when people deal with insurance and patients, they’re not very happy,” and I’m already guessing that, that she, on the other end of the line, is gonna wanna be known as being helpful, but also not have to deal with someone who’s really cranky. So I, that’s right. I intentionally uptick my voice. It wasn’t to be manipulative, but it was to hopefully. Hopefully, you know, have a quick resolution and it, and it did turn out that way.

[00:34:33] Dr. Chad Johnson: So framing. I love it.

[00:34:35] Regan Robertson: Yeah, framing and mirroring, like, yeah, yeah. Trying, trying to do those, um, those elements I think are, are really important when I’m doing marketing. So if you, doctor, if you’re listening and you’re considering marketing for your particular practice, I do the exact same thing. What is in it for your patient base? What is it that they want? Um. Ultimately, and it’s not as difficult as you think, right? It really does get down to they wanna be able to eat the foods that they really love, or they wanna be able to smile without being embarrassed. It’s not that difficult but when you understand that, that means that you’re actively listening to them and the, the messaging and the imagery that you use, um, fall into place and you’re able to, to resonate with people really, really easy. Well, we hope you got a lot out of this today. We hope you go check out that interview with Andrew Bustamante and let us know. Let us know if it shows up for you, if you’ve noticed anything about yourself and, and whether or not you, um, are, you know, you use it for motivating or, or manipulation or maybe both. Uh, how’s it or is it being used against you? I just think it’s insightful, especially for any leader listening. Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening to another episode of Everyday Practices Podcast. It would mean the world if you can help spread the word by sharing this episode with a fellow dentist and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share or feedback on how we can make this podcast even more awesome. Drop us an email at podcast@productivedentist.com, and don’t forget to check out our other podcasts from Productive Dentist Academy at productivedentist.com/podcasts. See you next week.