When Patients Cross the Line | Part 1 (E.313)

“Sometimes contrasts can actually be our biggest teacher in life.”- Regan Robertson 

Brief Overview of the Episode

In part one of this two part series, Regan Robertson puts Dr. Chad Johnson and Dr. Maggie Augustyn in the interview seat to explore how contrast becomes a teacher in dentistry.

Through real patient encounters, one centered on pricing pressure and another on a deeply personal boundary being crossed, the conversation examines how dentists are shaped by moments that do not feel productive at the time, but leave a lasting imprint on how they communicate, lead, and show up for patients.

These are not ideal scenarios. They are real ones.

What This Episode Reveals

• Why money is often the underlying tension in difficult patient interactions
• How unspoken expectations can quietly erode authority
• The role self awareness plays in leadership development
• Why defining moments often come from discomfort

What You’ll Learn

• How to stand firm on pricing without losing trust
• A language shift that separates diagnosis from dollars
• When empathy supports leadership and when it complicates it
• How early career experiences shape long term confidence
• Why boundaries clarify the relationship for everyone involved

If This Sounds Familiar

• Patients questioning motives once cost enters the conversation
• Feeling pressure to justify pricing or make exceptions
• Replaying conversations long after the operatory is empty
• Knowing you would handle the moment differently today

This episode gives language to those experiences.

Next Steps

This episode is part one of a two part series.
Stay tuned for next week’s follow up.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Introduction: Contrasts as Teachers

[00:00:00] Regan Robertson: Doctor, sometimes contrasts can actually be our biggest teacher in life, but they have to happen and then we are able to have that lesson. So while a contrast in, in action, uh, meaning, uh, a good patient interaction or maybe a really terrible patient interaction might feel great or not feel great at the time, but the lesson.

[00:00:21] Regan Robertson: Comes after the fact. And so today on Everyday Practices Dental podcast, I thought it would be wonderful to put Chad and Maggie in the interview seats this week and ask the question in a two part series. What is. A really positive patient interaction that you have had that’s changed the way you practice dentistry or lead the practice.

[00:00:44] Chad’s Story: The Church Lady Negotiation

[00:00:44] Regan Robertson: And then on the other side of things, what is probably the most negative patient interactions that you have had that has made you think differently and change the way you practice dentistry? Chad and Maggie, welcome to the show.

[00:00:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: Welcome. Welcome. Hello. [00:01:00] Good to see you, Reagan. Good to see you, Maggie.

[00:01:03] Regan Robertson: Like, we haven’t been sitting here chitchatting for a half hour before this.

[00:01:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: Just just saying. Just saying

[00:01:08] Regan Robertson: so. So what do we wanna start? Do we wanna be positive side of the coin or negative side of the coin?

[00:01:15] Dr. Chad Johnson: Um. Okay, so it’s funny when you were describing it, could I start with one that I thought was negative, but then I’ll finish with how it became a positive?

[00:01:24] Regan Robertson: That is precisely what I’m hoping that you will say.

[00:01:28] Regan Robertson: Yeah. Regardless of whether it’s a positive in the end or not, it It changed. It made an impact on you, correct? Yes. And a lot of times in life, I mean, we all know this, something negative happens and we’re like, oh gosh. And then you can get enough space in learning from it and go, well, maybe it wasn’t so bad.

[00:01:43] Regan Robertson: Who’s to say?

[00:01:44] Dr. Chad Johnson: Because we know the obstacle is the way. So, so, all right, so this, uh, this woman, um, comes in, she’s more elderly, uh, and, um, I was treatment planning something like a [00:02:00] crown or a filling, and she was just like, does it have to be that much? Or, you know, something along those lines. And. This was probably 15 years ago.

[00:02:10] Dr. Chad Johnson: So this is even pre productive Dentist Academy training. Okay. So it’s just raw. And um, and then my other preface to this is I think a lot of people, um. Loathe the types of people they most identify with sometimes because there’s a behavior that you’re expecting out of that person. And Maggie, you’ve talked to me about that, and then I’ve heard other dentists talk about that before.

[00:02:36] Dr. Chad Johnson: Um, where. They’ll be like, I can’t believe they just did that. I had, uh, an associate who was Asian and she was overhearing one of the conversations I had with a lady and uh, and she was like, she was just Asian in you. And I was like, what? And she was just like, she was trying to get a, uh, you know, you to come down on your price by being like, oh, I don’t know.

[00:02:54] Dr. Chad Johnson: I’m poor and stuff like, but I would never have thought to call it out. But she was calling it out as an Asian to another [00:03:00] Asian lady and I thought that was kind of interesting. So

[00:03:02] Regan Robertson: it’s not. Not racist. If you’re an Asian saying Asian. Is that how that goes? Well,

[00:03:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: either that or you, you can call it a racist, but like you get a pass for it.

[00:03:11] Dr. Chad Johnson: You know what I mean? So like, maybe it still is racist, but it’s, it’s just like, no, I expect more from whoever you’re identifying with. So this woman, um. That, that, you know, like a, a big part of me is my, my Christianity. And, uh, this woman comes in and, and she’s trying to pull the church lady thing and she just goes, well, I’m just trying to be a good steward of God’s money and, you know, and stuff like that.

[00:03:31] Dr. Chad Johnson: And, you know, trying to pull that on me and my hygienist and I, we kind of look at each other and I was like, and I just told her, uh, point blank. I said, so. For you to be a good steward means that I’m supposed to not be a good steward of my resources and time and money like so I’m supposed to just give it to you for free, like.

[00:03:50] Dr. Chad Johnson: Doesn’t it work both ways? I, you know, it’s like is, is God only on your side that he’s trying to make sure that your pocketbooks protected, or is that how the economy works [00:04:00] both ways, you know, like that the borrower and the lender, that the employer and the employee, the seller and the buyer, you know, are both.

[00:04:07] Dr. Chad Johnson: Somewhat satisfied in the transaction. Like what?

[00:04:09] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Or equally dissatisfied, right?

[00:04:11] Dr. Chad Johnson: Correct. Actually, yes, correct. When both people are almost resentful that the other person might have got a good deal. Perfect. That’s the market, the fair market price, right? So. It just, it kind of shocked me. And then it shocked Shonda that I said that to her out loud, the things I say

[00:04:29] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: because that was gonna be my question.

[00:04:31] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like did, did those words actually.

[00:04:32] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yes. Yes they did. And I love

[00:04:33] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: that they did. I think that that was, that was brilliant and fair and.

[00:04:39] Dr. Chad Johnson: Timely. Like she’s, yeah, I think she was herself. You’re

[00:04:41] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: going to bring that energy in. How do you expect me to react? I’m gonna bring that same energy back at you. Not a respectful way, but hey, this is how you’re thinking.

[00:04:50] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Why can’t I say what I’m thinking?

[00:04:52] Dr. Chad Johnson: Well, and maybe it’s something that she had never thought of before, like that there was a face. To, you know, and someone of the same beliefs, uh, you know, [00:05:00] so to be like, well, I’m just trying to be a good steward of God’s, you know, resources. And it’s like, likewise. So here’s the fair market price.

[00:05:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: Do it or don’t. Right? And, uh, and so Shada and I talking afterwards and she’s like, the things, and this is 15 years ago, so 15 more years of things that like I can, I, so I sometimes think, I can’t believe I just said that out loud, but I’ll say it with a smile. And this somehow makes it better and, and also, or easy,

[00:05:24] Regan Robertson: better, or easier.

[00:05:25] Regan Robertson: Maybe it’s both

[00:05:26] Dr. Chad Johnson: correct. I don’t know, but I just thought it was interesting because that also gave me a thicker skin to be like, you know, I want to invite people who are like me into the practice, don’t we? All right? You know, you, you invite like invites. Like, and so, um, I want to have her referring her people.

[00:05:43] Standing Up for Fair Pricing

[00:05:43] Dr. Chad Johnson: She knows I want people from her. You know, church coming to me, that’s fine, but like, I don’t want them coming to me thinking they can just make me into a pushover, because it’s just like, oh yeah, you just kind of berate ’em with a, a few like, well, just, I feel like God’s trying to make, and it’s like, no, I’m [00:06:00] not gonna do that.

[00:06:00] Dr. Chad Johnson: And so it was a moment of clarity where it’s just like, no, you know what? It’s as important for me to stand up for my cost of. What I’m selling something for, you know, the services, the goods and stuff like that, that those are just prices. Sorry, not sorry. Uh, so it was good. Did

[00:06:20] Regan Robertson: she end up going? I don’t know if I’m just like, blip this out in my brain.

[00:06:23] Regan Robertson: Did she say yes to treatment or no?

[00:06:25] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah, she said yes to your treatment. She did say yes.

[00:06:27] Regan Robertson: One

[00:06:27] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: of

[00:06:28] Regan Robertson: my curious, she asked, go ahead, Megan. Sorry. What’s the most unique way of matching and mirroring that I have? Scene. I mean, I opposed, so, right. I, I mean we talk about matching and marrying at the, you know, productive Dentist Academy workshops.

[00:06:39] Regan Robertson: And I just think that’s really interesting because that was a very different way to approach it. Yeah. Quite contrarian.

[00:06:45] Dr. Chad Johnson: I’ll take your, your steward comment and I’ll one up you, why in the world would I not be a good steward? And it’s just like you sit and think about that. I mean, and it’s, it’s so tough, you know?

[00:06:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: I bet she at the time was. [00:07:00] I bet at the time she was, uh. Let’s say 60 and I was 30. You know, it’s just like that’s, that’s kind of tough to hear from someone who could really be your son’s age, you know? But

[00:07:11] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I’ll also tell you, I commend you for speaking up. ’cause I don’t know if I would’ve found myself in a place as a 30-year-old saying that Good

[00:07:17] Dr. Chad Johnson: day

[00:07:17] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: bad, do you think?

[00:07:18] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And I’m not saying that that is a disrespectful, that’s actually the honest, I think it took a tremendous amount of courage to really meet her back by the same day spring and not let her get away with the manipulation. She was kind of putting forward to you because. Listening to this story, that’s kind of what it feels like, right?

[00:07:33] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: This lady was that line a number of times. So she’s gotten where she needed to get and now finally that she encountered you and she was like, oh, shoot.

[00:07:41] Dr. Chad Johnson: Correct. And I deeply, I still respect her. I think, you know, she’s a wonderful person. She is. And she’s, uh, and, and, uh, that’s so cool. Uhhuh. And she’s, uh, never said that again.

[00:07:55] Dr. Chad Johnson: And she’s had a good amount of other work done, and it’s just like, I mean, I, I [00:08:00] think it took, you know, like if she was just feeling out, like, is this just the, the, the, the. High price, but then you’ll like cut me a deal like Kohl’s bucks, you know, like Kohl’s discount dollars. And it’s like, no, this is just the price.

[00:08:12] Money and Patient Interactions

[00:08:12] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I see how many of the negative interactions that dentists identify with

[00:08:17] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yes. Have

[00:08:17] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: to do with money.

[00:08:19] Dr. Chad Johnson: Correct.

[00:08:19] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Or have to do with the scarcity mindset. Okay. Well let me erase it. It’s not a scarcity mindset. It is the scarcity of people not having enough money to pay for their dental care. Sure. Like how interactions between humans would change in the dental office.

[00:08:33] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: If you took the money out of the equation and said, Hey, Mrs. Jones, you need three crowns. And then they’d be like, okay. There’s not a trust distrust thing. I don’t need the money. Somehow it’s getting paid for. I don’t have to react a certain way. Um, I don’t have to demean you for what you’re trying to give me.

[00:08:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I don’t have to elevate myself or the shame that I’m feeling and, and trying to pay for this. I, it’s, it’s a. [00:09:00] That would be interesting to find. That’s a good point.

[00:09:03] Regan Robertson: But do you feel, Chad, I like how, how you really pulled it into a lesson that you, that you’ve learned through it. Do you feel like that could have been a catalyst moment then?

[00:09:11] Regan Robertson: And were you able to, uh. Kinda show up more authentically as yourself and, and mirror other people’s energy, or more importantly and tangibly, like, be able to speak your truth without worrying that you’re gonna offend a patient or, um, you know, get out of relationship with them. How, how did this, how do you feel like this has changed the way you practiced dentistry?

[00:09:29] Dr. Chad Johnson: What’s weird is I had an analogy pop into my mind that it’s not like the tree of being a master at that was chopped down in one chop. Mm-hmm. So it was one of the chops that helped me get to that point. But I don’t think it was like, oh yeah. From that day on. No. No. Um, but interestingly, how I might have subconsciously.

[00:09:51] Dr. Chad Johnson: Crafted. That is when I’m talking to you, Reagan, let’s say you were a patient and I said, Hey, you’ve got these three needs, you know, these [00:10:00] three dental needs and. You know what? It’s really a shame that it, it’s expensive. I mean, dentistry is either expensive or really expensive there, but there’s, you know, it’s, it’s, but there’s no, I mean, it just is, and, and so, but I’ll, I’ll say Reagan here, here’s the deal.

[00:10:15] Dr. Chad Johnson: You, you know, these three things need done. If it was like $3 to get this done, I think you’d be like, okay. And what I’m doing there is I’m making sure that it’s just like, Hey, talk to me. You understand? This is. F this is good for you to get done. This would help you be more healthy. And yes, a money is going to be a hurdle, but let’s take that out of the situation just for a minute.

[00:10:39] The $3 vs $8000 Technique

[00:10:39] Dr. Chad Johnson: If this were $3, you know, you’d do this and, and, and to watch them actually shake their head and be like, yeah. And so then I just go, okay, so now the only difference is we have to figure out how to get it paid because we’re in agreement. You know that you need this done. But we’ve got the issue of. Of payments, so [00:11:00] let’s talk that over with the financing upfront, you know, and, and stuff like that.

[00:11:02] Dr. Chad Johnson: So I just broached that. I’ll be like, this is gonna be like, lets, for example, this is gonna be $8,000. Holy moly. I don’t, you know, I’m a dentist and like people purport that dentists are rich and stuff. Like, I don’t even know if I’d have 8,000 bucks to, to do this. So I get it if this were $8. And so I just kind of do the, the same number, you know, just, but if this were $8, then.

[00:11:21] Dr. Chad Johnson: You know, you, you’d probably be like, oh, well shoot, let’s just get it done right now. Okay. So it you, it’s not that you don’t know this kraken in your tooth is going to be an issue. It’s that you’re thinking, crud, how am I going to get this done? So now you and I are in the sandbox trying to play and figure out how do we get this done as a team together, rather than like, oh, they just want $8,000.

[00:11:41] Dr. Chad Johnson: No, I’m here to serve you. So I, that’s how I’ve changed.

[00:11:45] Regan Robertson: I adore your tone and uh, and if you’re listening, like scooch it back a minute and listen to, to Chad’s tone because the way that you lower your voice and you show up as a guide in that moment, e, every time I hear you speak that way, um, even when we didn’t know each [00:12:00] other as well as we do now, I trust you.

[00:12:02] Regan Robertson: Like it makes me lean in like you were on my side. Yes, you are letting me know. And I think the. Additional lesson that I didn’t think about, uh, you know, before you shared your story In contrast for this is we don’t understand how much it nobody does. I really don’t think that it’s possible as a patient to understand how much worse it can be.

[00:12:22] Regan Robertson: Like really what the true damage is down the road if you don’t address certain things. And so and so, if you’re able to establish yourself as that trusted guide and be able to speak to them that way, I think that money. Example is just golden. And then the cherry on top is, if you don’t do this now, what in the heck is gonna be the cost down the line?

[00:12:41] Regan Robertson: I recently had that, uh, had that come up with a, with a, talking with a family member about their different options and I was like, you know, I got the little hairline crack in the back that I still haven’t dealt with. I really don’t wanna crown. So what are you sitting on the fence for?

[00:12:55] Dr. Chad Johnson: Right. Yeah. And, and that’s, um, you know, the, the tone kind of thing.

[00:12:59] Dr. Chad Johnson: [00:13:00] And then explaining to patients too, um, is I’ll, I’ll just say, here’s the deal. Like you, um, like, I don’t want you coming into this scenario thinking that. Uh, I’ve gotta get this crown done, or I’ve got to get this and that done as though you’re serving me. The fact is, and I’ve heard, I’ve said this on the podcast before, you’ve heard me say it after 300 some episodes.

[00:13:20] Dr. Chad Johnson: It is either once or twice, but let this be the third time that, um, I’m here to serve you. You’re not coming to get this crown done so that way you can serve me. Let’s flip the role. I am here to serve you If you don’t wanna get the crown done because you’re just like, it’s not that important to me, then don’t do it.

[00:13:38] Servant Leadership in Dentistry

[00:13:38] Dr. Chad Johnson: I almost, you know, I’m just like, then don’t do it. And

[00:13:40] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: that’s a really great display of serve out leadership, right? Because back in the day, and then there’s still plenty of aloft, this people do come in to elevate the dentist and to, uh, or the doctor or who the authority is, right? I, I am here to be taken.

[00:13:56] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Um. At, at, at, at. This is gonna come out wrong, but look at [00:14:00] no

[00:14:00] Dr. Chad Johnson: say it right.

[00:14:01] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like I, I am here for your taking. And, and we really need to change that dynamic. We became healers to be servants. Um, not, not the other way around. Not to have a plethora of people coming into to make us feel good about our, our service.

[00:14:16] Dr. Chad Johnson: Right?

[00:14:16] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I dunno if I’m making any sense,

[00:14:20] Regan Robertson: Maggie. Yeah. Let’s hear yours. What’s your story?

[00:14:26] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I don’t like this story and I don’t, um, I don’t know how often I share it. I, I rethink about it every now and again, but it’s not something that I’m proud of. And even thinking back like there, there’s not necessarily a lesson, a lesson that was learned at the time.

[00:14:41] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Mm-hmm. And I don’t even know how much of a lesson it’s been since this is. This is, this was one of the most difficult patient interactions I’ve had. It was personal, it turned personal, and IC and I and I really lost myself in the encounter. And now you’re really [00:15:00]wondering what, what happened. Um, so this was, again, about 15 years ago, maybe five years into owning the practice.

[00:15:08] Maggie’s Story: A Personal Boundary Crossed

[00:15:08] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: We were taking public aid patients, a lot of public aid patients, and especially children. This was at a time that I was still seeing children. Um, and I, I saw this young girl who was in public aid. Mind you, root canals were being reimbursed. Like $170. Um, and I don’t care if you say that’s 15 years ago, a ru and molar root canal.

[00:15:31] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Back then it was probably a grand, right? You were getting re reimbursed 15% of that. So I saw this, um, this young human and really with a tremendous amount of destruction in her mouth and, and, and decay that was really sitting right on top of the pulp for a number of teeth. And there was a question of.

[00:15:50] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Would this kid have insurance in the future? Would they follow up with care? How did they get to this place in the, in the, in the, in the first place, which you, you know, you, you kind of wrestle with [00:16:00] risk factors in there and you, you plug that in when you create your treatment plan. So I told her that her daughter probably would need through root canals and, um.

[00:16:10] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: So the other piece of the puzzle is that she was Polish and she was, and I am Polish. And so there was like a sprinkling of a different language in there. And so that a lot of times for my patient, um, and maybe similar to your interaction with your church lady, it makes them feel like they’re closer to you than they actually should be because you have this one thing in common, right?

[00:16:29] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I’m like, oh, we’re, we’re actually, we’re not patient and doctor. We’re like, Polish patient, Polish doctor. Which means that we’re basically friends, right? Um.

[00:16:37] Regan Robertson: Basically family. Basically, yeah. Every time you say you’re Polish, I’m like, I’m Polish too. I immediately think that every single time

[00:16:45] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: continue on. Um, and so she, she started, she asked, can I speak with you privately?

[00:16:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And I said, okay. And it’s this room that I’m in. Now I recently read a study about how people do not remember things [00:17:00] accurately. So I, um, I don’t know how, whether or not this is true or if this was just really predominantly in my head, but I believe my daughter was home from school and she was sleeping on my couch in this office.

[00:17:13] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And so the lady and I walk in and she said, I got a second opinion from somebody else. And they said that she wasn’t going to need the root canals I said. I understand why somebody would say that these things are right in the nerve of the tooth. Like, I understand she doesn’t have any pain. Um, but that’s, I believe that your daughter needs these root canals.

[00:17:32] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: There’s no way that I’m gonna open it up and it’s not gonna reach the nerve of the tooth. And she had had another root canal with me prior in, in several months. And so the lady. The lady looks at me and she says, are you sure that that is what your recommendation is? And I said, yes. And she just looked at my daughter and said, think about your daughter when you say that to me.

[00:17:55] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like, are you taking advantage of me by doing these BU on [00:18:00] my daughter? And so that’s when it turned really personal, right? Like she’s like, think about your daughter,

[00:18:04] Dr. Chad Johnson: right?

[00:18:05] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And also, tell

[00:18:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: me the truth. Tell me the truth, right?

[00:18:09] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: All kinds of explosives. Um, happened in my head because that was a barrier that she should not have crossed.

[00:18:19] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Uh, bringing my family, my daughter that was laying there into the conversation had nothing to do with hers, had nothing to do with my recommendations. Um, and I basically told her to GTFO. Um, like legit, like

[00:18:30] Regan Robertson: this is like another, this is like another contrast. I didn’t, I didn’t know your stories and I didn’t plan this.

[00:18:34] When Patients Cross the Line

[00:18:34] Regan Robertson: But isn’t, isn’t that an interesting way? Because we also, we, we all know, we teach Dennis to say, you know, if, if this were my mouth, if this were my mouth, like trying to relate to that. That’s fascinating that she. That she turned it and then, and then insinuated a, a negative communication with it,

[00:18:52] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: well being in, in human terms and ethically and all these things like, and then my kid was sitting right there, and I mean, J just, [00:19:00] I, I was really angry.

[00:19:01] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I was, you should have really angry. And, um, I, I certainly overreact. I was really young. Um, you know, to tell somebody like GTFO, um. And I have thought about but

[00:19:11] Regan Robertson: you didn’t really say that.

[00:19:12] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I did. You said G-T-F-O-I did like said out loud. Yes, yes, I used that word. Okay. Yeah, I was angry. Um,

[00:19:20] Regan Robertson: but, but, so, but when we’re triggered, sometimes there’s just no space.

[00:19:23] Regan Robertson: Like we all work on the fine input and reaction and so I think your reaction is extremely human. It’s extremely, like in the moment.

[00:19:32] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: So sure it’s human, but it’s not that of a seasoned.

[00:19:35] Regan Robertson: Yeah.

[00:19:35] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Provider, right? It’s not that of a healer. It’s not. Today. I would learn to disassemble that. I would learn to understand that there’s something that’s driving her to say those things and it’s, yeah, and it’s laughable for her to accuse me of doing something unethical for her daughter when I’m getting reimbursed $173 a year, right?

[00:19:54] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like I’m basically paying you to have this done. Right.

[00:19:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: Your taxes are [00:20:00] paying for it to get it done. Yeah.

[00:20:01] Regan Robertson: That would be such a good new thing to work into it. I’m basically paying for this. Yeah,

[00:20:07] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: yeah. But, but so, so that I have a lot of shame, you know, surrounding that. I encount for now. I will tell you, um, I have not said that to another patient, uh, since or after, or before or, you know, that was like the only time that I have said that, but.

[00:20:22] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: When I said that there was a, I don’t know that I should be saying all this, but, um, there was like a release valve. I mean, like, I don’t know, like it felt good to say that, and I realized that that is not what I, what patients sign up for when they see a provider. Um, but it, it was a very, you’re right Chad, it was a really human way, or Reagan, it was a really human way to react to that.

[00:20:43] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Yeah. Um. So, yeah, I swirl with a, a tremendous amount of emotion now. They never came back clearly. And uh, and I have rethought of that situation. I’ve re-looked at the x-rays to make sure that my diagnosis was, was adequate and correct. And, um, I mean, science has evolved since then. We [00:21:00] do different things now.

[00:21:01] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: If the decay reaches the pulp, we do have other options, um, that are more mainstream today than they might have been 15 years ago that I maybe even didn’t know about. Nor could that, could, she could have paid for, right? Like. Root canal specialist wasn’t going to be covered, even if she could get some sort of, um, you know, vital Polk therapy or something like that back then.

[00:21:17] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Um, but, but, but you know, the thing that really kind of upsets me the most in, in, in, in relaying all this is that if you asked me what was the lesson in it for you, I don’t know how to answer that other than I understand. How shitty my reaction was and how inappropriate was, and how childish and how immature.

[00:21:39] Lessons in Self-Awareness and Boundaries

[00:21:39] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: But that’s all I can tell you. Like I, I, I don’t know what else I learned from that.

[00:21:46] Dr. Chad Johnson: Hmm.

[00:21:47] Regan Robertson: Have you seen, I gotta find this. Have you seen the data on how, how many leaders believe that they are self-aware and then what the actual amount of self-aware leaders are in existence? It [00:22:00] is. It is like a chasm. So I, I don’t want you for a second to like dismiss.

[00:22:08] Regan Robertson: I don’t know what you, you know, you’re saying you don’t know what you learned from it, but if you learned self-awareness from that, maybe you’ve always been self-aware, but if that helped you reflect, that could actually be one of the best leadership tools in the long run. From such a, a, a negative situation.

[00:22:24] Regan Robertson: I, I’m also curious though, if your reaction was on the surface, it’s offensive, but maybe, I mean, on the deeper level, do you feel like they were also, like, it made you, it hurt so bad because it made you question, did I, did I, did I not diagnose this correctly?

[00:22:43] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Right. Sure. I, I, I mean all of that, I, I was young and arrogant too.

[00:22:50] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like that was, humility was not my strength at that time. I, I think that was the tagline

[00:22:56] Regan Robertson: of my business card all throughout my twenties. [00:23:00] Nice to meet you. I’m young and arrogant,

[00:23:02] Dr. Chad Johnson: but you know, the boundaries is something else that you learned in a, like again, you were chopping at the tree of mastering this lesson of boundaries.

[00:23:11] Dr. Chad Johnson: Other lessons, but, and it was one chop at that tree is that you were just like, no. You know what? I thank you for wasting 10 of my minutes while I’m a, you know, Medicaid provider, you know, so I can now be 10 minutes behind, compounded on everyone else wanting more of me and more of me. Yeah, those are, this is almost, this is almost like a therapy session, you know, like talking to this stuff out.

[00:23:36] Dr. Chad Johnson: But it’s, but I, it’s like, man, Dennis need that, you know, is, is people to be like, no. You know, like, okay, there’s, there’s, there’s, do we have to affirm every language bit that you chose? In order for us to say no, I still consent to the fact that you stuck up for your boundaries. Good [00:24:00] for you. You know, or, um, the, the, the lessons that you learned, you know, like that, uh, that you were just um, uh, I think it’s the boundaries is, is being able to say, my daughter is off the table.

[00:24:08] Dr. Chad Johnson: Uh, thank you for coming into basically the home of my office. Here in my personal office where my daughter is literally laying down as though it’s a home and you telling me that I’m not good enough. Kiss my rear out the door,

[00:24:25] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: but what did she think was going to happen?

[00:24:27] Dr. Chad Johnson: You were going to cry and, and acquiesce and say, no, you’re right.

[00:24:30] Dr. Chad Johnson: I’ll just put in a filling. I’m sorry. Can I just do it for free? Yeah.

[00:24:34] Regan Robertson: Oh, in that case, right? Oh, let me just change my entire treatment. You’re

[00:24:37] Dr. Chad Johnson: right. I’ve, I, everything I’ve done in dental school is wrong, and I’ve lived a lie. Let’s sprinkle some Mela sauce on the top of this tooth and off you go, Dr. It’s, yeah,

[00:24:49] Regan Robertson: I think it’s, I think even though it was.

[00:24:52] Regan Robertson: You know, when you ride a bike, you’re learning and you fall a lot and you scrape and you, you get your bumps and everything. I, I personally think it’s kind of inspiring [00:25:00] that you are able to speak your truth. And my favorite thing about you of all time, Maggie, is how, how open you are and how willing you are to, to share your truth and just lay it all out there.

[00:25:10] Regan Robertson: Be it good, be it bad, be it, whatever it is, the truth. And so, you know, in that moment, it, it. It didn’t maybe come out as, as smooth as jumping off of a, a ramp with your BMX and LA and sticking the landing. Ooh, yeah. But, but there was still, there was still truth in that moment and, and I bet now. Now when you see patients, if they start to even, I don’t even know if you would let them get to that stage.

[00:25:33] Regan Robertson: I don’t. Does that still happen to you today? Do people still come in with that sort of bravado at you, um, and, and act that way? Or do you feel like you sort of navigate that relationship ahead of time and you have the tools now so that it doesn’t have to get to that point?

[00:25:47] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Yeah, and I, and I think you come at the, you’re not as young and arrogant anymore.

[00:25:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: You kind of come at the mature and compassionate it, it, the conversation certainly doesn’t end up in that place.

[00:25:56] Dr. Chad Johnson: Correct.[00:26:00]

[00:26:01] Reflection and Key Takeaways

[00:26:01] Regan Robertson: So Maggie, that is a great place to stop for today and, and take this into next week. So thank you Chad and Maggie for sharing woohoo interactions that were not as positive as one would ever hope, but that ended up. Treating, uh, treating life, giving you a, a, a, a new perspective on life. They

[00:26:22] Dr. Chad Johnson: thicken your skin.

[00:26:23] Dr. Chad Johnson: They make you more apt and aware to prevent that from happening the next time. So, you know, for example, Maggie hears the next person in the operatory say, are you sure my daughter needs this? And Maggie might. On the thousandth times say, you know, I’ve heard this before. You know, uh, when someone asks that kind of question, I think that’s a valid question.

[00:26:45] Dr. Chad Johnson: If this were my daughter, I would feel bad that we have to have had it get this bad in the first place. But if it were this bad. It just needs done it’s time. And those are some bruises that it’s just, you know, and being able to do [00:27:00] that more proactively rather than Yes. And see you tomorrow, your appointment’s at one, you know, and, and wait.

[00:27:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: She didn’t acknowledge that I am nervous about my daughter getting this treatment and, and stuff like that. You and

[00:27:13] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Bruce’s words handle the rejection before it becomes a reject or no, hold on. How does that go?

[00:27:19] Dr. Chad Johnson: The objection, the

[00:27:20] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: object,

[00:27:21] Regan Robertson: although I really like that. I like that twist on it. So for 2026, I like that twist handle, the rejection before it’s a rejection.

[00:27:28] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yes. He’d be, he’d, he’d, uh, Bruce approve that. I, I can just picture it. Yeah. He’s, with that

[00:27:33] Regan Robertson: shout out Bruce Baird, host of the Productive Dentist Podcast. Yes. Uh, we’re, we’re here with you in spirit today. Well, thank you. Thank you both. Uh, thank you listeners for tuning in. Again, if you love us, you can, uh, shoot us an email podcast@productivedentist.com.

[00:27:47] Closing: Exercise for Your Team

[00:27:47] Regan Robertson: Let us know what you’re loving, what you wanna see more of, and uh, yeah. Any final words, Maggie?

[00:27:53] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Look, do this exercise yourself. I think this was really helpful. I mean, um,

[00:27:56] Dr. Chad Johnson: with your team. Can you imagine? Ooh,

[00:27:59] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: yes. [00:28:00] That’s a good idea. I like that.

[00:28:01] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah, the catharsis, that would happen. That would be a long lunch.

[00:28:04] Dr. Chad Johnson: That, that’s a two hour lunch right there.

[00:28:08] Regan Robertson: Thanks everyone.