Embracing Pain and Finding Meaning in Suffering (E.277)

[00:00:05] Dr. Richard Low: I don’t do well as a CEO when I’m a perfectionist. I’m a people pleaser and the larger your company gets, people are unhappy. The dental office is the same way. Someone is always unhappy and nothing is ever perfect. The more people you have, the more that’s true and and I didn’t cope well with. You know, stress and all kind of the mounting burden. But it’s the same story. You don’t have to have 35 offices to feel Crushed by the anxiety of running a practice, like your team and you are like this uphill battle constantly to feel alone, like you’re trapped like I bought this practice. I can’t get away from it. Um, I have a bunch of debts and to start to crumple and that’s really what happened to me is I started to kind of crumple.

[00:00:58] Regan Robertson: Welcome to the Everyday Practices Dental Podcast. I’m Regan Robertson, and my co-hosts, Dr. Chad Johnson, Dr. Maggie Augustyn and I are on a mission to share the stories of everyday dentists who generate extraordinary results using practical, proven methods you can take into your own dental practice. If you are ready to reclaim your time so you can focus on great patient care without sacrificing yourself along the way, buckle up! And listen in. Welcome to Everyday Practices Dental Podcast. I am your host Regan Robertson here with my lovely co host Dr. Maggie Augustine. Hi Maggie, how are you?

[00:01:40] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Well, hello.

[00:01:41] Regan Robertson: For the umpteenth time, is it Augustine, Augustine?

[00:01:44] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: It is Augustine.

[00:01:45] Regan Robertson: It’s Augustine. So, it’s on record now. I think I even have to re record our intro. Um, I have some challenges with words sometimes. Pint and pint is another one that I have. I can never remember if it’s pint or pint. So, stay with me guys here. That’s not what we’re here to discuss today. Uh, I was scrolling on social media the other day, specifically Facebook, and I came across this post from a really amazing fellow podcast host, uh, a shared practices, Dr. Richard Low, uh, who happens to be a Facebook friend, buddy of mine. We’ve been on each other’s episodes before and, um, the post says this, “I had a friend who went through the worst day of his professional career. Two days ago, the patient is okay, he is okay, but it got scary for a minute. The biggest reframe that he had was realizing that this patient almost went to another doctor in that practice and they would have had the same experience, but it would have been much harder for them to bear. It could have broken them when he looked at it this way. He was glad that it happened to him rather than being bitter.” So much on Facebook is just junk to me. I just scroll past it and this one stopped me in my tracks and Richard attached four different kind of principles, if you will, with it. And so I, I reached out and said, Hey, let’s, let’s get on and talk about this deeper. So Dr. Richard Lowe, welcome to a Everyday Practices Podcast.

[00:03:05] Dr. Richard Low: Thank you. Thanks for having me on and um, drop the doctor. It’s just Richard. It’s Richard.

[00:03:09] Regan Robertson: Okay. Just Richard. Well, just Richard. Welcome.

[00:03:13] Dr. Richard Low: Thank you.

[00:03:14] Regan Robertson: Yeah. So, uh, I would love to, to know about, about this particular post and, and what brought it about, like, why, why did you post about this story and what does it mean to you?

[00:03:24] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah. Um, and I’m, I was really, I was tickled that you’d noticed it and that you, uh, latched on to that. It was a real interesting story. Um, right now, I, uh, my poor wife has to explain to people. Yes, my husband is a dentist. No, he doesn’t have a practice. He’s got a podcast and he’s like running a men’s group for dentists.  So he’s kind of like a personal trainer for dentists. She’s like, it’s a long story. You don’t, you don’t want to hear it. So. Um, that’s her intro and my two year old actually doesn’t believe that I’m a dentist anymore. We were watching baby shark this morning. Um, cause that’s how you keep a two year old sane while you’re getting the rest of the kids ready for the day and it was like the baby shark dentist thing and she’s like, “Oh, baby shark dentist.” I was like, “Well, daddy’s a dentist,” and she’s like, “You’re not a dentist. Baby shark’s a dentist.”  My two year old doesn’t have enough evidence that I actually can practice dentistry because it’s been about a year and a half since I’ve been seeing patients. Um, But, but this story behind this post is that, uh, there’s this doctor in my men’s group, um, and he had a really rough extraction. Um, it was an upper second molar, took a big chunk of a tuberosity out with the tooth. So a lot more came out with the tooth than he wanted to. And Yeah, those are hard. You know, you have these complications, you do everything right, you’ve done a bunch of these before, and the patient wouldn’t stop bleeding. Um, it was pretty scary. It was, it was scary and EMS had to be called, patient made it to the hospital, even in the hospital, patient passed out twice. Um, so just, just a really, really scary day, you know, and. So the crazy part is, is that we have these check in calls, and the next morning, we were on a check in call with about 10 of us doctors and he was like, “Guys, I’m kind of in a dark place.” Um, and he shared this story, and he was just very shaken, um, and very Like he said, this is the hardest professional day I’ve ever had. Um, and he had this narrative in his head around the fact that he had, he kind of had a clear schedule. He was an associate at this office with another doctor. She was also an associate and he’d gone in and volunteered and said like, Hey, I’ll take this patient. Um, because the patient had like one more thing to do on their treatment plan. This was the patient. And so in his mind, he’s like, “Crap. Was this because I was like wanting to produce more and he was like feeling guilty at first.” I’m like, “No, in dentistry, we have this really cool alignment where the more dentistry we do, the more people we help. Yeah, sure. You produce more and make more money, but it’s because you worked more. Um, so don’t feel weird about that,” and, but, but just in his head, like, how could this have gone different? How could I have known just all the self doubt and beating yourself up, fear, worrying about the patient and. Immediately, the other, the other dentist in the group, the other man in the group jumped in and, you know, one is a dental anesthesiologist and he’s seen patients die on the table. And, um, another dentist, um, has had a, had a patient that had some major complications, similar type things, and was later sued by that patient’s husband and it was for years, this kind of like deep, painful wound that he’s had to process through therapy and all these things and they were able to immediately support him. Um, in this moment and to give him context and give him support and, and at the end of that conversation we realized, you know what, if this patient had gone to that associate, that other, your friend, his good, good friend who was not as extraction, um, comfortable and was newer at the practice, um, had less kind of confidence overall with these types of procedures, this would have, um, really, really kind of, thrown her for a loop for a long time, you know, and, and shaken her. He was able to go back the next day. It’s not like he had PTSD, but it was so interesting to see live within 24 hours of kind of the worst day of his life. He all of a sudden was grateful it happened to him. Um, and that immediate reframe was like just amazing and that’s why I had to share. I was like, I have to, I have to share this. This was really cool to see. Um, so yeah, so that’s the context behind that post.

[00:07:45] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And the power and the depth of community.

[00:07:48] Dr. Richard Low: Yes. So many of us just suffer alone in dentistry. Like we’re in our little islands and we’re all going through like parallel breakdowns and self doubts and uh, but we like don’t tell anyone because that’s like not acceptable to. Tell people you’re struggling or to admit that you don’t know what you’re doing sometimes or that you, you know, and luckily, you know, the patient saw the specialist and the oral surgeon was like, “You handled this right. You called EMS. You did, you know, you didn’t try and handle it on your own. You didn’t try and drive the patient to the hospital to avoid a ambulance bill. This could have happened to a specialist. In fact, these hard ones get sent to specialists all the time.” Like this is, um, you don’t know what you don’t know and he did everything right and had nothing to feel guilty about. He was in the, you know, taking care of the patient the way that he should. Um, so yeah, so that’s the context.

[00:08:41] Regan Robertson: It’s crazy though. where our brains as humans naturally go and I think his, you know, his initial response, even though to me on the outside sounds insane, you know, like where you justify it, like, “Oh, you know, why did I take it?” And did I, I just want more money or whatever, wherever that brain was going. It’s like, it almost seeks out those reasons to, to put blame and completely inappropriate areas and I know from, you know, even my own personal experiences that aren’t dental related, but, but, you know, business related that, that is going to be a process for him. So, having support is, is, it’s priceless and it’s because it’s going to come up again, it will, it’s, it’s locked in your brain, it’s locked in your cells and you’re gonna have to process it. I know, um, you also, uh, have kind of. I don’t know how we say it, firewalked, walked on coals. You’ve had a transformation yourself. Uh, when I, when I first, uh, you know, met you, you were, you were a dentist. Did you have two practices also, or was it just one?

[00:09:39] Dr. Richard Low: Um, when we met, I think I had bought three while I was still in the army with some partners.

[00:09:46] Regan Robertson: Yes. Yes. I remember this. So, so I just found out this morning that you, that you’ve transitioned and so now you’re providing support in different ways and not practicing dentistry. Do you mind sharing what your journey was through that? Because even that, I mean, even if nothing major happened and you didn’t bleed somebody out on accident or, you know, of no fault of their own, something must have occurred, uh, changes difficult, no matter what.

[00:10:10] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah. Um, so, uh, here’s, here’s the shortest version of everything was I started a podcast eight years ago in my closet outside Fort Hood, Texas about practice ownership and eight years later I found myself the CEO of a 35 dental office, denture and implant group and I had absolutely zero business doing that, um, and was miserable and dying inside. So there’s a lot of dots in between. Those two points and I that that specific point that we met was about halfway between starting the podcast I bought three practices as I was getting out of the army I still had two or three years left of the army and I ran those practices through kovat with some partners I realized I don’t like multi practice and I walked away and then In the meantime, we’d started a coaching and consulting business shared practices and we actually have attorneys now.

[00:11:07] Dr. Richard Low: So we’re like a dentist owned law firm, which is, which is pretty weird. Um, and then, uh, George Hariri, my, my partner, uh, the author of our book, Dental Moneyball, he came to me. He’s like, Richard, I think we’re going to start a DSO and I was like, “George, I just walked away from DSO stuff. Like I thought, I thought we were, we were good with no DSO stuff.” Um, but it was a really good opportunity. He was like, listen, this denture and implant model is pretty amazing. It’s transformative is basically like taking clear choice plus affordable and just making that an office. You kind of have the full array of someone walks in their terminal dentition. They know they need all their teeth pulled. We’ve got a lab tech, no hygienists, and here’s your options. Immediate denture, overdenture, all on four. Um, and we had, we’d figured a few things out that we felt like we could, we could get traction with that model and so, you know, we merged up six dentists, uh, between our, I think at the time, 13 offices, we merged together. Um, somehow I became the CEO, I think because I started the podcast and so people were like, “Okay, yeah, yeah, he’s in charge, right?”

[00:12:16] Regan Robertson: Oh, wait, can you pause there for one second? Cause that, that is, that’s a rough. That’s a rough road to hoe right there. Like if that elected by committee, obviously it’s not just the podcast, but they had the faith in you. They saw you as a natural leader. When I met you, you had this huge sparkle in your eye and that’s very charismatic and indicative of CEOs, you know? So when I, when I met you, I had this, just this feeling of like, you can do anything you’re going to do anything. So I’m wondering, I don’t, I. I wonder if that’s why you were elected to be CEO.

[00:12:46] Dr. Richard Low: Well, there’s always more behind the scenes than like you can truly share. Like it, it, it was like a, how is this going to go? But it came down to, um, with six very entrepreneurial dentists. So the coolest thing about starting a podcast, as you two know, is you get to have these like amazing conversations with different people and you attract your tribe, you attract your people and over time you build these relationships. Well, shared practices, uh, MO was we’re going to be the entrepreneurial dental podcast for like my generation of people, you know, I graduated 2015, and we felt like the, we said we’re going to ignore every dentist who, this was at the time, we no longer do this, we’re going to ignore every dentist who’s already established, because they’re not going to listen to us. Like, who’s going to listen to some new grad talk about practice ownership when he’s still in the army but if I can talk to a dental student, who like, wants to figure out how to get into practice ownership and help them, then maybe they’ll listen and, and so, over the next six years, or, or five years, we attracted a lot of extremely entrepreneurial young dentists, dental students, which then those dentists went out and graduated, bought practices straight out of school, some of them now, you know, own three or five or ten practices. That was the tribe that we attracted was this dentist who can’t help but like build businesses. Um. And so that’s who the six partners that merged up were people that, uh, were part of our circle, all six of us, very entrepreneurial and so essentially we had our C suite to, uh, shared practices group was we filled out the roles of like the executive team and we had a very flat structure. So while I was CEO on paper, I am not operationally great. I’m good on air and I’m good at, you know, in certain circumstances, it was like, okay, he’s the face of the company, but like the actual running of the company, like, let’s split this up here and so we had a very flat structure and all of that, but I self identified right up front of like, I don’t know how well I’m going to do with this as it scales. I don’t know. I don’t, and I don’t want to be in the way. because they, they had a vision that was like, I just started a podcast and now that dream has had a baby and that baby had a baby and that baby is really big and I, you know, I’m, I don’t know and so it turns out that I was right. I, I don’t do well. As a CEO, when I’m a perfectionist, I’m a people pleaser, and the larger your company gets, people are unhappy, the dental office is the same way. Someone is always unhappy and nothing is ever perfect. Um, the more people you have, the more that’s true and, and I didn’t cope well with, you know. Stress and all of the, kind of the mounting burden, but it’s the same story. You don’t have to have 35 offices to feel crushed by the anxiety of running a practice. Like your team and you are like, it’s this uphill battle constantly to feel alone. Like you’re trapped. Like I bought this practice. I can’t get away from it. Um, I have a bunch of debt and to start to crumple and that’s really what happened to me is I, I started to kind of crumple.

[00:16:01] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: So when you decided to transition and leave and walk away from this, magnificent structure that you helped build. Was there any part of your ego that was fighting you back and saying, “Um, if I leave this, uh, will I be less successful?”

[00:16:24] Dr. Richard Low: 100%. That’s why I did it in the first place, you know, is like, uh, how could I not? I think it’s the, it’s the FOMO, like to be at the ground level of something. Um, and Same thing. Well, and I guess at that point I got miserable enough that I no longer cared about my ego. I think that’s what it came down to is I was suffering enough that I was like, screw you ego. Like we’re, we’re out of here and it took a lot of, uh, of, of killing of that ego to step away for like, I didn’t know what was going on. I was like, I need to take two months of unpaid medical leave, guys. Like, I felt extremely guilty for abandoning my partners, for abandoning my doctors, for the obligations, the direction we were going. There was a lot on every shoulders and everyone’s shoulders and I was like, sorry, guys, I can’t, I can’t keep doing this. So I think even that it was more kind of guilt and shame was harder than, um, like, oh, am I going to be able to do something like this? Because I, I’m a, a cheap date. I’m a Midwest boy. We live in Indianapolis houses here, like 400 K.  We’re like in middle class suburbs. Like I don’t drive fancy cars. So, you know, my long term ambitions for like what we need to build to satisfy. Our lifestyle and our goals, I don’t know, um, is, is not that fancy and you can do that with regular dentistry. You don’t need a DSO. You don’t need some big grand thing, um, but I think it was the shame of like abandoning partners that was ours.

[00:17:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: There’s a, there’s a term that I, I, um, I learned at Vanessa Emerson’s expansion last weekend that really defines me when I’m at your point and that’s hemorrhaging. I mean it feels like you’re losing blood from everywhere at the expense of building everybody else up. Is that what it felt like when you made the decision to walk away?

[00:18:12] Dr. Richard Low: It, it did and, um, and at the same time, when you’re hemorrhaging bad enough, you have to make really hard decisions. Um, cause it’s like, we gotta live. You know, it’s like this, this is not going to sustain well. So I think that was unfortunately the point I had to be at was hemorrhaging. to then make a hard decision. Um, and I still, like, I still feel bad. Like when I interact with doctors from, from our group or even some of my partners, I feel like, man, I wish, I wish I had been able to grow into the role. You know, like you look back and I, I crumpled the stress and all of those things. Like I felt like a non functioning adult. I felt like I do better in a clinical setting. I’m ADHD. I, I would get anxiety checking my email and I was supposed to be managing projects and driving teams and I was like, if you’ve got me on a meeting, I can hop on and talk, but like managing me with the stress, uh, it was embarrassing. It was like, this is not working well. So I do, I did well as a dentist. I was like, maybe I need to be clinical again because You can’t procrastinate patient care. You just go room to room to room to room. There’s no, like, self managing, you know, are you staying on top of these projects? It’s just like, just do the dentistry. So there’s been this kind of whole in depth midlife crisis, uh, and I feel like I’m just going on and on and on, but this is the kind of stuff that I’m opening up and talking more about, because I think a lot of dentists don’t talk about how much they’re suffering in their practice, because it’s not cool. It’s like, oh, if I was cooler, I would handle this better and I don’t want anyone to know that I’m, I’m dying on the inside.

[00:19:56] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And especially men and I want to commend you for that because you’re supposed to not be vulnerable and, and open. You’re supposed to be angry, right? You’re, that’s the only emotion that you are allowed to display is you’re supposed to be an asshole and be angry and start firing people. Um, and that’s how you show strength. You’re not supposed to walk away and take two months off of unpaid leave to recover emotionally.

[00:20:21] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah, um, and, and it’s funny you said that is, uh, the, the men’s group that I joined. So I joined a group along this like self destructive path and, you know, my marriage was on the rocks because of this. Like I, I kind of almost lost all the things that were most important to me and therefore walking away from a partnership was like, okay, this is what I need to do to focus on what matters most. Um, but I joined a men’s group called Superhuman Fathers, which was an utterly ridiculous name. Um, and I love Kyle. I’m actually meeting with him right after this. Um, and he has a weekly call called Assholes Anonymous. Um,

[00:20:59] Regan Robertson: Speaking of assholes.

[00:21:03] Dr. Richard Low: And I mean, essentially it’s, this is, this is a program that, uh, I don’t know if you guys know Emmett Scott from DEO. Um,

[00:21:12] Regan Robertson: No, but my son’s middle name is Emmett Scott. Oh, that’s really funny. No, I don’t know Emmett Scott.

[00:21:17] Dr. Richard Low: He’s got a podcast and he’s one of the, the main players at DEO, uh, for, you know, multi practice people these days and he, at a conference, showed his before and after, his transformation. His like, he went from like 280 pounds to like 180 pounds and had a six pack. Um, and, that’s major. It was a big deal and, and I was there very much in my pain, but no one knew. Everyone’s like, “Oh, tell me about Shared Practices Group,” and I got to tell her story and everyone’s like, “That’s so cool. You guys opened 10 offices one year and then you opened 20 offices the next year. That’s insane.” I’m like, “Well, it is insane.”

[00:21:54] Regan Robertson: You’re so successful. You’re so great.

[00:21:58] Dr. Richard Low: But, but I was, I was really [00:22:00] struggling and dying inside and Emmett got up there and Kyle, the founder of this group, got up there and they said, we will get you in the best shape you’ve ever been in your life. You will have abs and you’ll be a better husband and father and reconnect with purpose and with God and I swiped my card so fast, I literally had no clue what the program was, what I was committing to. I was like, I just need something. Um, but the, the emphasis was. Yeah, you can have a physical transformation, but if you’re more of an asshole at the end of that physical transformation because now you have an ego and you think oh, I look good or I’m in the best shape of my life, we’ve failed you and in fact, we use the physical as the way to break a man and cause him to actually own emotion and self reflect and deal with Shame and failure and all of those things because the same way if you fail at a diet you fail at your workout routine and you have to hide it from your buddies that you’re trying to do this with together, it’s the same thing as failing in your office, failing in your marriage, in parenthood, what are the strategies that you use to protect your ego? Like you said, how do you? self preserve when you’re the one self sabotaging and make it about everyone else. You get angry, you like point the finger, um, you’re the grumpy dad who like is mad about stuff at work, and then you take it out on your kids unintentionally.

[00:23:17] Regan Robertson: Well, society tells us that, that, you know, if you’re not growing, you’re dying. So your natural career trajectory, if it’s presented to you, you would be a fool to turn it down. Like, why would you turn it down and you for my humble, you know, reflection or perspective, you were at an inflection point of authenticity and the body tends to speak to us in ways that are painful when we are not acting authentically. And I think you had that niggling right out of the gate. I just don’t know that this is the right path for me and there is such a big internal struggle that had to have gone on. I don’t know if it was one straw that broke the camel’s back for you and made you say, I’m going to take these, these two months off. Um, I am curious. What was that one moment? Because some doctors, Richard, they just, well, not just see doctors, but people, they don’t make it that far. They, they, they suffer an event. They have a cardiac event. Something happens to break them worse than that. So something was there that made you make that right step and shut down the ego and all of the guilt and the shame and the feelings that went along with that. That is a huge act of bravery on your part and took courage.

[00:24:33] Dr. Richard Low: Well, um, it’s funny. I remember going to one of Mark Costas’s events and talking with one of his associates at one of his offices and Hearing some of the behind the scenes of like well, here’s the stuff that he talks about and teaches but here’s what goes on in our office, and I remember thinking okay if I ever build something I’m gonna share more of what goes on behind the scenes and I tried to do Like with those first three practices and it immediately bit me in the butt. Like I went to an office, met the team. It was kind of my first meeting with them and then I went back and like podcast about the next day. Well, in the meantime, they’ve looked me up. They found my podcast. They go and like, “Listen to that episode and my partners at the time are like, Richard, you can’t like go blab our operations on air the moment that it happens because like, but,”

[00:25:27] Regan Robertson: One of my favorite, one of my favorite episodes was you being very transparent. It was around, I think revenue. I think it was maybe collections and revenue and you were like, just saying, here’s my level of knowledge and I remember I listened to podcasts when I get ready in the morning and I like stopped. I was like brushing my hair and I was like, what? So, keep going, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but you were great at that, at sharing very openly, um, you know, what you’re going through.

[00:25:48] Dr. Richard Low: And, and what I realized is It’s, it’s really hard. As soon as you have doctors who are employees, you’ve got multiple offices, you’ve got a lot going on. I also had a whole lot more, and I had to take some episodes down from things that I had like shared, you know, trying to be vulnerable. Yeah, but all of a sudden, You, you, when it’s one office and everyone in your office knows you, you know, it’s like your dental assistants, your hygienist, your office manager, your associate, and they know they’re like, “Okay, this guy podcasts. If we say stuff, he might share it online and then we’ll come give him a hard time,” and said, “Okay, you’ve talked about me on the podcast and I heard you but as soon as you’re not there and you don’t have a close personal relationship with them, you can no longer like. out some of the details of, of the, you know, what’s going on. So you asked this question, it was like, what was the actual moment that broke you? And like, okay, there’s this one doctor who’s no longer there that I could maybe share some of that story of that very toxic situation. But, eh, I don’t know about that. And then there’s some things with some formal, former people that there’s still consequences going on. And, you know, like, I can’t, I want to, I want to like. Yeah. spill all the details, but in, in respect of the people who are still working in these offices and the people that, you know, you just, you just can’t. And so I, all of a sudden I understand much more. Um, but I will say there was undiagnosed mental health stuff going on. Like for me, um, I remember Googling like, what’s it called when like nothing sounds good. Like when you just don’t want to do it.

[00:27:26] Regan Robertson: I call it Eeyore. I say I’m in my Eeyore brain.

[00:27:29] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah, right.

[00:27:30] Regan Robertson: Yeah.

[00:27:30] Dr. Richard Low: Well, apparently the term is anhedonia. So like hedonia is like the pursuit of pleasure. And this is like a lack of pursuit of pleasure. Like it turns out it’s a symptom of depression. Um, and, and at the time I wasn’t like, “Oh, I’m depressed.” I was like, “Oh, that’s funny.” I’m not depressed, but

[00:27:47] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I find pleasure in the things that you normally would have found pleasure and there’s just nothing makes you happier. Like walking like a zombie.

[00:27:55] Regan Robertson: Oh, yeah, I can share openly because I think mental health is really important and sharing our stories. I remember [00:28:00] when my therapist a few years ago had identified for me that I had depression and I was shocked. I was like, huh, really? And she walked me through it. And then it took me a while, Richard, to go from, I guess I get it to, oh, I get it. I get it. That’s that’s this is a problem. Yeah, it sounds

[00:28:19] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: like you just couldn’t be yourself anymore. Yeah, it’s the breakdowns like you were this person and this person was readily sharing knowledge of the things that you have built and you wanted others to learn from the stories and from the shared experiences. And there was a barrier, uh, in being able to share that. And that was, you know, truly out of the respect of people who didn’t want those story shared, but that, that blockage of like, whatever you were growing in your soul and in your heart couldn’t come out. Yeah.

[00:28:56] Dr. Richard Low: Right

[00:28:57] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And so you couldn’t live as the person that you wanted to be.

[00:29:00] Dr. Richard Low: You’re absolutely right. Even in, even in my marriage. Christine told me she, she said, um, my experience of you as CEO was you stressed in the corner on your phone. It was like hunched over, like miserable on my phone. It was not this like boardroom suit situation. It was like Richard is crumpling in the corner and she would ask me how my day went. There’s just, you know, it’s like, okay, this former office manager is calling patients because she’s bitter of how she got let go and like telling them to leave the office. And then this assistant, her boyfriend is making death threats against the doctor and it’s just like that stuff that would happen in the course of a, of a day and it was like the third thing. And then there’s like 12 things. After that and and so Christine she would ask me was like I can’t I can’t even relive it I can’t go back through what happened in this day and I think a lot of times when you’re seeing 30 patients in a day Like, these little micro interaction occur, you know, of like, ugh, this patient, and this team member, and then this person getting offended, and this person getting upset over a bill. And it can be this onslaught of decisions and negativity and frustrations and people letting you down and it’s all, it always comes and goes in like waves. So it’s like everything’s good for a little while, and then everything hits at once. Um, and since I’ve started opening up about this stuff, I’ve had dentists reach out who are having panic attacks on their drive to work, who are, um, deeply depressed. They’re in middle divorces. They’re recovering from a whole variety of addictions and, and trying to like get honest and straight and, and own up to those things. They’re, they feel utterly isolated and alone. Um, my wife looked at me about four years ago and she was like, you don’t have any friends in Indiana, do you? And at first I was like, “That’s not true, but then I was like, sure, it is true. Dang it. My dental friends all [00:31:00] lived out of state, you know, so it’s like I had to go fly to to see my dental friends. Um, but within our hometown, it was like, who do I talk to about my weird first world dental problems? Like no one relates to those.

[00:31:15] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And I know our listeners are like, are like, yeah, me too. There’s just so many of us that, you know, thankfully to what you’re now, you know, opening up from your soul, your heart, your, your, your brain, they don’t feel because I mean, did you feel alone in, in how you felt? Did you think you were the only one? Were there moments like that?

[00:31:40] Dr. Richard Low: Um, You know, it’s funny. We all, we all think like my, my circumstances are unique. You know, like my, my pain is like a special flavor of pain. No one’s tasted this one before. It’s, it’s bad. You don’t want it. Um, I think. I think the biggest thing was feeling trapped. I felt like I had put all my eggs in this basket and I was very unhappy and I wanted to make it work. I wanted to be a good CEO. I wanted to um, show up for my partners, show up for my doctors and I wanted to kind of rise to the, to the stressors and instead I was imploding and it was like I felt very trapped because now it’s like I’ve committed, I’ve, I’ve, you know, this is who I wanted to help, who I wanted to serve, and it’s not working and I don’t know what to do now and so, yeah.

[00:32:27] Regan Robertson: I’m sorry. Go ahead. Well, was it, was it the coaching? Was it the coaching that helped you people please yourself? So instead of people pleasing others and honoring others, you put that effort into yourself and honored yourself. What was that step?

[00:32:45] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah. I think it was. To stop lying to myself is really what it was. Um, lying to myself. What’s that?

[00:32:54] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: What was the line?

[00:32:57] Dr. Richard Low: Um,

[00:32:58] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Put that on a t shirt. What was  the lie? I want to know the lie.

[00:33:07] Dr. Richard Low: That I could become a different version of myself that all of a sudden would love this thing that I didn’t love. Like, that if I just transformed, and, and, the lie was, the truth was this isn’t working. Um, and so the lie was you just need to try harder to make this work. And it must, because you’re not working in this, you’re not trying hard enough. Um, but there is also Like, I gave up. I gave up on myself. I gave up on my health. I gave up on a lot of aspects of my marriage, of my faith. Um, I still did pretty good at putting the kids to bed at night. I did a good job with that one still but, uh, everything else, um, I kind of tapped out and um, just kind of slid the wrong direction and that was also really hard, was to like not look at myself and realize you’re not who you used to be and it’s not a good thing. Um, so that’s the other lie is like, “No, no, no, I’m really this guy. I’m really, I’m really this good guy who does all these good things,” and then you look at it on the face of it and you’re like, well, you don’t have as much evidence as you used to have for that, that stance, because you’re acting selfishly and you’re covering your tracks and you’re not showing up the way that you should. Um, so that, that was a big part of, I think the, the line.

[00:34:38] Regan Robertson: Wow. This, this whole episode has been very paradigm shifting because you’ve, you’ve had to go through a tremendous journey yourself and, um, and you still podcast, uh, host shared practices and you have a new podcast as well. Is it a secret podcast or is it, we’re allowed to share it?

[00:34:57] Dr. Richard Low: It is. So it is a secret podcast, which. All that means is it’s a private feed. Um, so it’s not like searchable on iTunes or if you

[00:35:06] Regan Robertson: Hence my Googling fail. Now we get it. Okay. Right.

[00:35:10] Dr. Richard Low: So the only, the only way to get it is, um, I’m, I’m trying to go pro on Instagram this year and I’m going to be creating a lot of video. Uh, and I’ve 10 videos in South Africa and I’m shooting some B roll and like we’re, I got a drone. I’m going to try and get some drone B roll and all that stuff but a lot more like hot takes and just authentic stuff on, on Instagram. So it’s atnext level fathers.dmd is my, my new Instagram handle for my men’s group or at dr.richard.lo. Um, either one of those, um, But the men’s group one has the new secret podcast. So if you DM me there or comment on any of the videos, the, the word 50 or the numbers 50, you’ll get the link for it. Um, it’s called broken to unrecognizable how to drop 50 pounds as, uh, how to drop 50 pounds and become a next level husband, father and dentist. Cause the name of our group is next level fathers. Um, and It doesn’t, you know, the physical transformation, it’s a lot of fun. If you go from like 220 to one, you know, 165 and put some muscle on your friend, like you look like a different person and you feel like a different person and I was like, if I’m going to have a midlife crisis, you got to at least have like the Rocky montage where you’re just like training all day. You know, I had some time finally. Um, and, and make something good out of it, but it really was transformative. It’s what allowed me to self confront and pull myself out of the darkness and now turn around. This is, I think the fate, my favorite part of it all is so much of our like failings. We just beat ourselves up with them. And like, it feels like it’s, there’s, it’s never redeeming. It’s just like, I suck. I suck. I suck. Why do I continue to struggle? But now since I’ve been able to be more open and help other men who struggle with same, some of the same addictions, some of the same problems, Um, by being open and vulnerable, it helps them and it’s like by sharing that journey, it helps them. And now I can start to forgive myself for being the asshole that I was. Um, I can start to turn like the pain that I had along the way into something good and in a way that I wouldn’t be able to connect with this other person. If I hadn’t gone through the same crappy moments and crappy decisions, I wouldn’t be able to help them make better decisions and see a light and improve themselves and so that’s been really fun, to like turn what’s been a lot of pain, a lot of shame, a lot of frustration into helping other dentists who just, who just want to be better. They just want to be the best version of themselves.

[00:37:54] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And that’s how you’re bracing the pain and redefining it.

[00:37:58] Dr. Richard Low: Exactly.

[00:37:59] Regan Robertson: That’s, that’s the segue, Maggie, right there, because I was thinking, so there are, um, there are personal coaches in dentistry and so there’s the practice management ones, and then there’s the personal ones also. So that’s not different but what was different to me was getting back to repping all the way around to the social media post because again, there were four particular, um, uh, Proverbs and different lessons that were posted with it and this differentiated you and, and made me really want to reach out and, and Maggie, you just touched on it. One was embracing pain by redefining it. That was number one. I’m going to go through all of them and then I want you to talk about them. Number two, my chronic pain is so unfair. Three, I’m suffering so they don’t have to or four, who knows what is good and those were four very paradigm shifting thoughts. I love it. I love it. When, when something is, is challenged and I learned that the brain stores and focuses more on negative experiences than positive because it’s trying to protect us. It’s trying to help make sure that we don’t do that again. And I can see how it turns into rumination and then it just really can create this perfect storm like you went through and many dentists go through but if we’re able to shift the way that we think, or you have tools available to us, to, to everyone so that, that we can see things from a different perspective. That to me is where growth can lie and Maggie, you had a lot of thoughts about this first one. So it says embrace pain by redefining it, no matter the reason we are suffering, whether it’s our own mistakes, someone else’s fault, illness, or accident. If we can find meaning in the suffering, it changes everything.

[00:39:37] Dr. Richard Low: So back to Maggie or me, sorry.

[00:39:39] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I will just quickly share, um, what my experience with it is, is, um, we tried to push off pain. We’re so afraid of, um, we’ll do anything and I think that’s the human condition, the fear of it, because when you actually feel pain, it’s not as bad as you’d imagine it and it’s the same thing for anxiety with patients, right? Like, however, we imagine the pain [00:40:00] from, you know, the fear of going to the dentist is actually worse than being at the dentist. Um, so the Buddhist, uh, make a distinction between pain and, and suffering, um, and I’m just in my own cycle of, of, of this, I’ll call BS because I find it uncomfortable and the difference between pain and suffering is that if you accept pain readily or change readily or, or the, the, um, the change readily, you’ll just have pain, okay? And pain isn’t so bad, but if you do not accept it, and if you fight it, and if you try to change the story in your head, and if you really don’t submit to it, that pain turns into suffering. So your idea, um, in that first statement of embracing it, the Buddhists would say that by embracing it, you reduce suffering. Um, which is really exactly what you’re, what you’re saying.

[00:41:04] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah, and I remember, um, there was a, I was, I was pushing carts as a cart boy at Sam’s club when I was like 17, 18 and for some reason, this like therapy book called acceptance and commitment therapy book fell in my lap and I was subbing in at the gas station and it was freezing cold. It was here in Indiana and you’re in that little hut and people try and swipe their cards at Sam’s Club and you have to go like help them swipe it and, um, so I had a lot of time. I’m just sitting there and, um, I’m reading this book and it’s talking about exactly what you said, this, this principle of our relationship to pain and our relationship to suffering, like how we think about that pain, how much resistance there is to it versus embracing it changes that. And. It was cold and I didn’t wear a good enough coat and I had to change the trashes at the end of the night and so I was like shivering as I’m like out there taking out the trash bags and I had this thought, um, from the book and I was like, what if you just embrace the cold? Like rather than like being like annoyed and bracing yourself against the cold and I stopped shivering like I instantly stopped shivering and I was like, “Oh, this was me being unwilling to accept the cold and it made it more miserable,” and then I was just like, “Okay, there’s the cold. That’s fine. It’s there,” and then to take it one. Layer deeper if there’s a way to find meaning in that now all of a sudden we create suffering by running away from it Now we can eliminate that suffering by by embracing it. Can we then find meaning and redefine it and have purpose you know, they talk about the janitor who, you know, three different janitors. The first one at an elementary school. The first janitor is like, it’s just a job. I got to pay the bills. It sucks.

[00:42:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Yeah.

[00:42:53] Dr. Richard Low: And the second janitor is like, I’m providing for my family. This is how I take care of my home and my family. It’s really important to me and the third janitor says I’m shaping young minds. I’m part of their education and part of their learning. They all have the exact same job but the meaning that they ascribe to the hard parts of being a janitor at an elementary school is completely changed by the meaning they bring to that job. Um, and it’s the same thing with pain. We tell ourselves a story of, why me? This isn’t fair. Um, and, and, like, I shouldn’t be suffering this. Someone else should be, or maybe, you know, it shouldn’t be, it’s not fair that anyone’s suffering these kinds of things. Um, but that story we tell and the meaning we ascribe fundamentally changes our relationship to it and our, our capacity to handle it and be the person that we want to be live our own values in the face of pain, despite pain.

[00:43:48] Regan Robertson: Yeah, that goes into number two really well, which was my chronic pain is so unfair rather than bitterness. At the unfairness, which life is unfair, we can [00:44:00] inspire by showing up for others, despite the pain, illness, injury, cancer, all give us expanded empathy and compassion.

[00:44:11] Dr. Richard Low: Yeah. Um, this one was. Uh, this last year my wife’s had a lot of chronic nerve pain and it’s like still ongoing. Um, and it prevents her from sleeping and at one point like she had her leg would seize up in the night and I’d kind of have to at 3 a. m. work her calf and her, her thigh. Um, I was like an on demand single leg masseuse in the middle of the night.

[00:44:35] Regan Robertson: New business card, right?

[00:44:36] Dr. Richard Low: Spouses only and, uh, so, but it, it just, I, you know, at different moments, it felt very unfair and it felt very like, why me? It made it harder to do all these other things. It made it harder to sleep. Um, And at the same time, like we ended up, you know, bonding over it in that, like we, I got to serve her a lot in that and it was like, I, I had to like, you know, I, I wanted to wake up early and working out and I could have to work out and I could have said like, well, I can’t work out because Christine wakes up in the night and then I got to take the baby. And instead I was like, okay, I’m going to wake up, massage her leg and then, um, I’ll fall back asleep and then I’ll wake up at 4. 15. I’ll get my workout in before the baby wakes up. I’ll take the baby so that she can sleep because she didn’t sleep for two or three hours in the middle of the night. Um, and I can show up for her right now when she needs that. Um, and it brought us closer together. It was awful and it still sucks and she’s still got some stuff going on with it, but it’s improving. You know, it’s not getting worse. It’s not going the other direction. It’s healing slowly but gradually because nerve pain is just like that but, uh, yeah, that was, it was hard to see her suffer, but then it, over time, we kind of saw the fruits of that together as a couple and we became grateful for aspects of it. It still hurt, still a pain, but you know, wow.

[00:46:04] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And the counterpoint about it is that I think it breaks a lot of marriages apart. That absolutely for sure of pain and chronic pain puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the other partner to do the housework or whatever it is. It brings up anger and resentment and, and what you’re doing and being able to reframe what’s happening probably has a lot of healing, um, ability for your wife, I would think and even the touch itself probably has healing. healing ability and the fact that you have compassion and, and your presence, uh, probably helped with her healing. Whereas if you came at it with the resentment and anger.

[00:46:51] Regan Robertson: Oh, no question. Probably decompensate for the right. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. You feel the energy of others. You feel the support of others. You feel the love of [00:47:00] others. And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, if you’re in a negative environment. with a lack of empathy or a lack of compassion that does not aid to your healing. I think it actually does. I have no scientific proof, but I, I believe that it does negatively impact you. Absolutely. I think there’s a lot of power in love.

[00:47:16] Dr. Richard Low: Well, and the other two parts of this is I mentioned earlier that like, I kind of made a mess of our marriage and things were not in a good place and my wife is not a massage person. She doesn’t like back massages or shoulder massages, but I’m a good masseuse and for once in our marriage, she needed me and I was, I was like, I’ll take any brownie points that I can get because I’m in the dog house and I’m, I’m trying to, you know, reprioritize our life. I’m not traveling for work anymore. I’m not doing things that are causing me to break down from stress. And, and I can get some brownie points waking up at 2 AM and massaging your leg. So there was some selfishness in there for me too. I felt really validated in the like, yes, see, I am good at this.

[00:47:56] Regan Robertson: I think it’s a beautiful story actually. All right. I know we’re running short on [00:48:00] our time here, but number three, I’m suffering so they don’t have to, this is the essence of being a father. Or mother Yep. So we bear hard things because we love them, but you don’t have to be a parent to draw from this meaning as well.

[00:48:14] Dr. Richard Low: And that was the story that we started off with was that doctor who, you reframed his really awful, the worst professional day he’d had in his career. And why me? And did I do something wrong and beating himself up? And all of a sudden it was like, you know what? I was glad it was me. I was grateful that it was me. And he had this instant, he’s like, she would not have had this, this support network. He’s like, I had on demand therapy the next morning at our check in call with a bunch of other dentists who’ve been through the same thing and have been through worse things that could give me support and context and Uh, she didn’t have that. You know, it’s like she, she would have broken her in different ways and she didn’t have support in the same way. Um, so that, that was what inspired that thought in this whole carousel was that exact story.

[00:49:04] Regan Robertson: The, the one that, the fourth one, which I think, um, I personally relate to and I use it a lot myself. So I think it’s a good note for us to, to end on, even though I think Maggie and I could talk to you for hours, uh, is who knows what is good. I, I say this so many times, especially when I’m in my darkest times, the Chinese proverb, who knows what is good and what is bad means that in a year or five years, we might look back on the worst moment of our life and realize that we are grateful for the good that came out of it and I have had that reflected to me so many times and I can get so reactive and so nervous and so anxiety ridden because we, that’s, there’s unknowns and uncontrollables that I can’t control and I, I felt that this was so powerful. Why did you include it in this from your own perspective?

[00:49:52] Dr. Richard Low: Um, Yeah, that, that Chinese proverb, um, and there’s a whole story about a farmer who loses his horse who brings back these other horses and his neighbors keep asking him like, why aren’t you upset? Why aren’t you happy? And then his son breaks his leg and they’re like, oh, you’re so unlucky. And then they come and they draft all the young men to go to war, but his son doesn’t have to go because he broke his leg because of the horse. This for me. Um, is what allows me to, um, feel really good about like some really hard times. And it’s like, we just don’t, we don’t know what’s coming around the corner. Um, and those really hard times feel super dark when they’re dark. Um, and they just feel like, how could this ever be good? Like, how could this ever turn into something good? And then you look back and you’re like, wow, that, that’s one of the best things that could ever have  happened to me. Um, and, and we have to be looking for it to have those realizations. If we’re just in our bitterness and in our regret and in our shame, then it’s hard for us to look up and see that. Um, and always pointing the finger, but it’s like, if we just put our heads down and embrace, okay, this is a hard time. I’m going to lean into the pain. I’m going to find meaning in the pain. I’m not going to run from it. And who knows what’s on the other side of this. I’m just going to show up the best way I can today and six months, nine months, 12 months later, we might look back and realize, like, that was, that was what we needed.

[00:51:37] Dr. Richard Low: That’s what, uh, unlocked for us more opportunity than, than we realized possible.

[00:51:45] Regan Robertson: Richard, dentistry deserves This level of, of openness and honesty and authenticity. And I am so grateful that you have turned your own struggles and challenges into [00:52:00] something that helps and serves others. And most importantly, that it serves you. Thank you

[00:52:07] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Yeah. I’m so grateful for the hope that you can bring. And, um, for the open mindedness and the honesty that you bring. And I know that as of recent, we talk about how, um, isolating dentistry has been for women, but also the growth that men are now experiencing by opening their hearts to one another, um, and the community that you now have helped create, uh, for those open hearted men.

[00:52:39] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: We need that too. So thank you. Absolutely.

[00:52:42] Dr. Richard Low: And if anyone wants to watch the the shit show unravel and Richard’s going to talk about everything, go uh, Instagram at nextlevelfathers.dmd.

[00:52:53] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I already joined during this podcast.

[00:52:56] Dr. Richard Low: Thank you guys. Thanks for having me on.

[00:52:58] Regan Robertson: Absolutely. Thank you Richard, so, so much. It’s been, it’s been a joy. Thank you for listening to another episode of Everyday Practices Podcast. It would mean the world if you can help spread the word by sharing this episode with a fellow dentist and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share or feedback on how we can make this podcast even more Awesome. Drop us an email at podcast@productivedentist.com and don’t forget to check out our other podcasts from Productive Dentist Academy at productivedentist.com/podcasts. See you next week.