How to Embrace Negative Emotions (E.266)

“What if being down is of substantially more value than being positive? What are we denying ourselves in transformation and opportunity by just passing through it?” ~Dr. Eric Roman

In this episode, Dr. Eric Roman, founder of 1LifeSystem joins the Everyday Practices Dental Podcast crew to jump headfirst into what happens when we are brave enough to lean into discomfort. Be prepared: this episode shares raw stories about navigating narcissism, embracing solitude, and why sitting with negative feelings can be the key that unlocks new creativity and personal growth.

Tune in to discover:

• Tools for turning discomfort into clarity and action.
• Insights on how solitude fosters deeper self-awareness and creativity.
• A new perspective on the challenges of dealing with difficult relationships.

Listen now to find strength and inspiration in the emotions you least expect.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Announcer: The Productive Dentist Academy Podcast Network.

[00:00:03] Dr. Eric Roman: What I acknowledge is that positive or negative, even the negative emotions carry even greater weight and power and power creates change and movement.

[00:00:13] Regan Robertson: Welcome to the Everyday Practices Dental Podcast. I’m Regan Robertson and my co host, Dr. Chad Johnson, Dr.

Maggie Augustine, and I are on a mission to share the story. stories of everyday dentists who generate extraordinary results using practical proven methods you can take into your own dental practice if you are ready to reclaim your time so you can focus on great patient care without sacrificing yourself along the way, buckle up and listen in.

Doctor, did you know that PDA coaching doctors grew 219, 000 on average in just the last 10 months? If your revenue goals fell short this year, and you suspect that patient communication and inefficient systems are holding you back, Productive Dentist Academy can help. But you have to take action.

Register today for the PDA conference, March 8th. 13th through the 15th in Frisco, Texas. Go to productivedentist. com to snap up your seat. It is the nation’s leading course for growing your practice and your team. Plus while you’re there, you can set up a free 60 minute session to identify your own unique opportunities for growth.

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Imagine you’re a dentist at the top of your game. Your practice looks great on paper, but behind the scenes, you feel stuck. The emotional weight of leadership, team dynamics, and just the daily grind are taking their toll. You might even be wondering, is this what success is really supposed to feel like?

Our guest today is Dr. Eric Robin, a practicing dentist turned CEO who understands. Intimately, what it means to navigate the highs and lows of business ownership as the creator of one life system, a proven framework that helps dentists reclaim balance and control. This is a paradigm shifting episode. If you are looking for ways to chart a path forward for a deeper sense of satisfaction in your life and your career, let’s jump in and get started.

[00:02:10] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I don’t know if this happens because men are least likely to admit this. I can cry everything out in the shower. It, I, I do. Sure. It’s just so. That’s a temptation

[00:02:21] Dr. Chad Johnson: song.

[00:02:22] Regan Robertson: You can cry it out in the shower?

[00:02:23] Dr. Chad Johnson: No, but it’s in the rain, like, Oh how I wish that it would rain. Um, it, it’s a beautiful song, but he’s like, I love when it rains because then I can cry and no one knows.

[00:02:35] Announcer: Oh,

[00:02:37] Dr. Chad Johnson: that’s actually, um, that and just my imagination. Those are my two favorite temptation songs. I will queue it up for you guys.

[00:02:43] Dr. Eric Roman: Well, Maggie, I’m just gonna, I’m going to acknowledge your question. Um, you know, as a man, I typically, my goal is to have one like full cry per year is where I am. That’s good. I would love to have more, but it just seems like based on historical standards, that’s typically where it is.

And like, I need a good trigger event to just let it loose. I kind of would like people to know that it happened because like, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, did it really happen? Right? Like, does it make a sound? And so, you know, I don’t, well, I don’t need the shower to cover it up. So if that was a thing, I think I have had at least historically the shower, like release of emotion.

So it seems, yeah, I could see that. I can just, I’m going to put a, I’m going to put a pin in that one. I’m going to put that one in my holding tank for this year.

[00:03:28] Regan Robertson: I cry on airplanes.

[00:03:30] Dr. Eric Roman: Oh, been there, done that one time, one time. Oh,

[00:03:34] Regan Robertson: one time only. Yeah. I think it’s because typically when I travel like airplane travel, it’s for work.

And I think I carry stress before because I want to do a great job wherever I’m going, whatever I’m supposed to do. And then there’s the release afterwards. So I get on the plane and I put on a movie that I know is going to be a moving. Movie. And then I just ball notebook, the notebook. Oh, then. Oh, come on.

Is it also

[00:03:58] Dr. Chad Johnson: possible that you’re anticipating like seeing the fam again? And then that, like, cause that’s what it does for me all. I was just telling someone this week that like, for example, if I see this little girl holding her daddy’s hand at the airport, I’ll be like, Oh shoot. And then I’ll start thinking I’m, you know, I miss my girls and stuff like that.

So.

[00:04:17] Regan Robertson: Oh, the parental guilt is never ending and it’s, it’s been nonstop. So I would say since probably seven years now. Yeah. So, so as soon as I bumped into the C suite, that’s when it started because that’s when I started traveling a lot more and doing the long days and prioritizing work consistently over family.

So that is never ending guilt.

[00:04:38] Dr. Eric Roman: Yeah, which is kind of what we want because I think that’s okay. I mean, like, I don’t, I’m not ever going to tell everyone that we should have guilt, but I think it’s a good thing that we feel that from an emotional perspective. Um, I I’ll acknowledge that my airplane cry was, I was in the midst of doing personal work and I was traveling home from like a really deep session and I was journaling and I was sitting there and you know, the nice thing about Thing about airplanes, like take ’em for what they’re worth.

Like you can use it to be completely detached and to really zone out. You gotta hum. You don’t want to talk to anybody. You can put your headphones on. And I was just looking at the personal work and I like broke and I just broke and I just had tears streaming down my face. Like, as I was doing the work and it was really kind of cathartic and kind of, kind of fun.

But I’ll also like, I’ll acknowledge, I think I’ve had years where I’ve traveled upwards of 25, 26, 27 times, maybe 28 times a year, which is a lot. And, um, I was born, I was born to travel baby, pilot, dad, flight attendant, mom, same thing. Oh, wow.

[00:05:36] Regan Robertson: Literally.

[00:05:36] Dr. Eric Roman: Like I was probably the brood of the mile high club for all I know, but, um, you should Yeah, I know.

I have asked and I don’t want the answer. Um, but to your point, again, there, why are we traveling? We’re traveling to accomplish something. It’s speaking. Typically, I know for me, it’s a lot of speaking gigs and like, there’s a ton of energy, like about what’s the experience going to be like, how’s it going to go?

And there’s all this buildup and there’s all this tension and stress. Like no matter how many times you do it, there’s a ton of tension and stress. Yeah. And then to your point, when I hit the airplane, that’s the moment where it’s like, Oh, I’m coming home. Chad. Like I get to see my kiddos. Like I got a kid picking me up from the airport, maybe three of them.

Like, and it’s like that release. And so I’ve learned I have to be very careful with what I bathe myself in movie wise if I do that.

[00:06:27] Regan Robertson: Yes.

[00:06:28] Dr. Eric Roman: Yes. But I’ve set rules and my rules are after event, like no productivity whatsoever. Mindless entertainment, like is my goal. Because if I go to like the emotional thing, it’s like, it’s adding weight to weight.

And then I’m like, that makes sense. Absolutely. Like, let’s watch Avengers for like the 35th time. Okay. Can I ask, has anyone seen

[00:06:49] Dr. Chad Johnson: Temple Grandin? No, I mean, I know this story. No,

[00:06:53] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: yeah, I did. Yeah. So it’s a recommendation.

[00:06:55] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yep. 2013. But just, um, two months ago, I watched it on the flight back from a course course and, um, she’s autistic and I really identified with her and I was crying.

I think I told you guys this privately, but I was like, I think I cried the first 15 minutes of that movie. Not the first two minutes, but like within the first 15 minutes I was crying because I was just like, I get her. And I didn’t realize. How much I get her. And I was like, Oh yeah. So it was just a very relatable character, which is interesting because how do you do that with autism?

But then that put me down the alley of like self testing and being like, I’m practically autistic. And so, you know, like. Not necessarily clinical, but I mean, when I, when I took the self test, I was shocked how you know, close I was to being like within the diagnosable category. So yeah.

[00:07:42] Regan Robertson: Yeah. I think there’s, I think there’s definitely, you’re right.

There’s, there’s power in that release. I tell my kids all the time, it’s a healthy thing to cry. So it’ll make you feel better to release it. Is it get it out and it’ll feel much better. And just like I think everything else though, in my own life, I have a sense of control over it, where I do it, how I do it, why I do it.

And you’re right. What kind of cry are you going to have? Is it going to be mindless and you just let it out? Or is it going to be deep? And the whale was the one for me. I watched the whale. I didn’t even, I didn’t have headphones. I remember this was on the plane. So I had to do the captions and it was when the first two minutes of the movie I was crying.

And then I cried for the whole entire film. The whole film, and it was just insane to me, but it felt, I felt much better afterwards and I was in a better space when I did get home to my family. So I think maybe that’s, I don’t, I don’t have an intent or a goal. I don’t set one. I just, that’s just what it’s evolved into for me, I guess.

[00:08:30] Dr. Chad Johnson: My favorite movie cry, Mel Gibson, the Patriot, was it his son dies and he starts crying and I swear in that movie, he must be a good enough actor. Like that was real, but he’s crying really raw. And then he gets this resolute, like it’s. Irrational and then it becomes a point of clarity and he’s like, then that’s what we’ll do.

Then I know what I need to do. And it turned on from, you know what I’m talking about, Eric? That moment. I

[00:08:54] Dr. Eric Roman: totally do. That

[00:08:55] Dr. Chad Johnson: was the best cry scene maybe ever. I mean, you know, whatever, uh, like possibly ever. That was a great cry scene. I’ll

[00:09:02] Dr. Eric Roman: throw it up there. It’s a top.

[00:09:03] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah, top

[00:09:04] Dr. Eric Roman: five. It’s got to be a top five.

No doubt. Do you know, um, how about we put a pin like inside of crying and negative emotion? Right. Do you know what I give thanks for the emotional shift in society? Because My training, my generation’s training, my parents generation, you don’t show emotions. So they trained us, I remember hearing my parents say, Don’t show your emotions, son.

I can still hear it. I can hear my dad saying it. And what did that say? It said emotions, bad thing.

[00:09:31] Regan Robertson: Yep.

[00:09:31] Dr. Eric Roman: Uh, homie, no. Emotions are a gift from God. They were created in us. And they have immense purpose, you know, like what I acknowledge is that positive or negative, even the negative emotions carry even greater weight and power and power creates change and movement.

Right. And so it’s like, when I look at every major point in my life, it always involves perception of serious, heavy, negative emotion, but that’s the energy that causes something to shift. Right. And yet. What do we do? We say, tuck that crap in. Don’t show your emotions. Don’t cry. Don’t cry. And I would like to share how I’ve applied this.

Like I got five kids in here, four girls. Like, do you think we got tears? Yeah. And you know what my training instinct is when they cry or my wife is I like, how can I get rid of it? Like, how can I make cry go away?

[00:10:22] Announcer: And I was

[00:10:22] Dr. Eric Roman: so convicted by this recently that like my new approach just hold space for their cry and like, let them cry, like be there with them and support it.

Just like acknowledge it and hold it and man, and the reason I bring it up, I had unanticipated cry at date night last night with my wife.

[00:10:38] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah. And

[00:10:39] Dr. Eric Roman: we’re sitting there in the pizzeria and like something heavy comes up. Yep. And she cries. And what is my instinct? Like run, like get rid of it, say something funny.

Make it better. Get rid of this. So what if somebody sees, and you know what I did is I said like, I just, I held it and I said, Hey, like this is as uncomfortable as I make it. She’s doing it. Mm-hmm . She’s crying like I’m the only one that’s making it uncomfortable. And so anyway, like,

[00:11:05] Regan Robertson: how did it feel compared to what your normal reaction is?

[00:11:08] Dr. Eric Roman: Do you know what? I got up. I was letting it be present, saying nothing, like not trying to console her, just looking into her eyes and like holding space for the cry. And at some point, like, I was like, Hey, can I get you some more water? And I went up to go get us some more sparkly water. And as I was walking over there, I kind of patted myself on the back a little bit and I’m sitting there and I’m thinking, cause what’s your first thought?

Like, well, does anybody, do they think that it was something I did that all these people are wondering about? One’s crying. And then I thought, I don’t give a crap. Like, it’s empowering. And it felt so good to just sit there and think, I didn’t have anywhere else I needed to be. I didn’t want to end our little dinner time.

I just said, let’s ride this pony, you know? Like, so,

[00:11:49] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I have so much to say on this.

[00:11:52] Dr. Eric Roman: Oh, good. ,

[00:11:53] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I cry. Maggie. Hi, Dr. Maggie.

[00:11:56] Announcer: Yeah,

[00:11:56] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I cry a lot and I make it a, a point to sometimes hide it just because I do it so much better. I also make it a point to make sure my daughter sees it so that she doesn’t have to hide it.

My daughter’s very ashamed to cry. She, uh, she hides all the time when she cries and I tried to empower, encourage her. It’s fine if she wants to hide, but just she has to let out her emotions and, and so here’s what I wanna say. Because of how much prior generations have been stifling emotionality, there’s a beauty in, in how we’ve shifted,

[00:12:28] Announcer: but

[00:12:28] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: there’s a price that we’re paying.

We’re calling it generational trauma. The other day I started to cry and I started to cry because of. How I’d grown up and when I started to cry this last week, I, I stopped my car on the side of a row and I was just hysterical. And I realized that I wasn’t just crying for myself, I was actually crying for all the women that came before me.

[00:12:51] Announcer: Hmm. That

[00:12:51] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: were told to just, you know, . It doesn’t matter if a man was violent against you.

[00:12:57] Announcer: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: You just needed to keep going. You just needed fuck it up. suck it up. And you couldn’t cry. And you know, there’s, there’s these tears of freedom. There’s these tears of pain. And ultimately, I’m hoping that the tears that I am shedding will somehow in some way free my daughter and my son.

Whatever generations come after her. So there’s a beauty in the fact that we can now display our emotions.

[00:13:26] Dr. Chad Johnson: Such a beauty that Miranda Lambert’s wrote about that in, you know, the, this ain’t your mom has broken heart song.

[00:13:32] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Yeah.

[00:13:33] Dr. Chad Johnson: That’s no, you don’t know, Eric. right now. I have a,

[00:13:37] Dr. Eric Roman: I have a personal vendetta against country music, not for any other reasons other than generational trauma.

[00:13:42] Dr. Chad Johnson: It’s okay. But the, um, the lyrics to that song, um, you know, that you’re supposed to hide your emotions and suck it up and put on your lipstick and, you know, like just behave like a proper woman would. And, but she’s upset about what country artists are upset about. And she’s like, this ain’t your mama’s broken heart.

And she’s just, you know, kind of having a, A pity party of sorts are crying it out, but she’s just like, I know my mom would be like, get up and, you know, fix your makeup and, you know, fix yourself up. So,

[00:14:07] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: you know, the, the idea of fake it till you make it, that’s right. Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:14:12] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: And I tell myself that sometimes to stop feeling sorry for yourself, just keep going and it’s okay to keep going.

[00:14:19] Dr. Chad Johnson: Yeah. I was going to say there might be a time and place for that.

[00:14:21] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Um, but, but it’s, but you’re not feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:14:25] Dr. Chad Johnson: Right.

[00:14:25] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: You do not release. The pain of whatever you’re facing, it will live within you and it will at some point somehow minorly or majorly destroy you and it will remove the possibility of some sort of growth or inspiration or it will remove the possibility of you being your best

[00:14:49] Regan Robertson: self, you know, I’m right in the middle of this.

It’s been, I think, a year. I would say just about a year where I have been trying to learn to appreciate negative emotions as valuable as positive ones. I have, I think consistently tried to get through the negative to get back to positive. So my default is positive. positive and that for everyone around me too.

And yeah, you can follow the train for that when you learn these things young, but try to make the environment copacetic and positive for everyone. So if a negative emotion comes up, uncomfortable, try to get through it as fast as humanly possible and suck it up as a good term for that. And I have shifted in the last year because of a freaky hippie psychic poet reader, writer, I went to some.

wizardry fair for fun with my sister. And there was a psychic poet and he would write a poem about you. And I thought that is so funny. Of course, let’s do it. Let’s do it for fun. So I sit down and he says, who would you like me to, you know, to channel today? What do you want to focus on? And I said, Oh, I, I love spirit guides.

I’m sure they’ll have something to say. So I just sat there, didn’t know anything about me. I was in like yoga pants and a sweatshirt. And so he writes this poem out. And the summation of it was, uh, your angels wanted to talk to you because you don’t listen to humans. And they are telling me to tell you that you need to appreciate the negative emotions just as much as the positive ones.

And you avoid those, so instead you should feel them. Feel them and sit with them, just like you said, Eric. Like, sit with them and feel. And so, that’s what I’ve been trying to do. And it’s uncomfortable, but it’s like I move through things. Much faster, which is

[00:16:25] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: crazy discomfort is not that uncomfortable, actually.

Right? Right. When you write, I think we’re more afraid of the discomfort than if we, my psychiatrist told me that a long time ago, if you sit with the discomfort, if you really sit with it, it actually passes much faster than how afraid you are of it. Just sit with it, let it happen and it will pass. Yeah,

[00:16:44] Dr. Eric Roman: hold on.

I want to go deeper here. Oh, let’s go. What if the negative emotion is of not just of more value than the positive? What if it’s of substantially more value than the positive? What are we denying ourselves in transformation and shift and opportunity by passing through it? See, that’s like, I

[00:17:05] Announcer: mean, girl,

[00:17:05] Dr. Eric Roman: I’ve been sitting in it all year too.

I have laid to rest two businesses. And instead of like trying to put it in the rear view mirror, I’m like just sitting in it and owning the transformation that’s happening inside, sharing it, talking about it, and letting it be present without, I have zero intention, like I’m not trying to move through it.

I’m not, I’m not racing towards, you know, better me. Yeah. Which by the way, is like my first 22 years of marriage. There was a pile under the rug, the size of like an elephant, but I mean, I’m just letting all that stuff be there right now. And, you know, in my personal life, in my relationship with my wife and my relationship with my kids, just letting that energy be there and.

There’s a freedom that comes from that. My son was angry because, Hey, home skillet should be happy. He made the fricking basketball team, but he didn’t get the playing time he wanted in the first game. Like, like, dude, he was down. And my wife, like, that was actually one of the weights that triggered her.

The other day was seeing him so down about it. And like, and so what do I want to do? And instead I’m like, be down. It feels bad. It is good. Like, just let that like, be there, you know? And so what does it change? Yeah. This is a very tactical approach for people. I have had business partners in the past that were unwilling to acknowledge any type of failure.

Who hasn’t, right? People in their lives that like, no, no, no, no, no, you don’t understand that’s a win. And I told them all moving forward. Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. You need to understand how good this is for you, right? Like that we’re cutting your pay. Like you need to understand how this is a net win for you.

No,

[00:18:41] Regan Robertson: right? It’s not.

[00:18:43] Dr. Eric Roman: Like, let’s be honest here, but just sitting in like, however long it needs to take. This is super tactical. Let bad energy be there. We’re not in a race and don’t deny yourself the energy of transformation that negativity can be.

[00:18:57] Dr. Chad Johnson: I like it. Hey, I have a second, um, offering that we keep in this topic, but switch it up.

So not just a negative. emotion. But what about a negative behavior like narcissism? And who has experienced narcissism the most? The most? I don’t know. I’m just, I’m trying to ask some provocative kind of question, you know, like who’s, who’s experienced it and what has it taught you? Are you through with it yet?

[00:19:24] Regan Robertson: I don’t, I don’t think I knew what narcissism was for a really long time. So I didn’t realize that I was being, uh, engaged in a narcissistic way until years later. And then I went, Oh my goodness. I had no idea. In fact, I think I was in therapy when I figured that out. It really was. I don’t know how many times you’re truly shocked or like truly surprised, but when, when it all came out, I was dumbfounded for a minute and was like, I have allowed myself to.

to be controlled and manipulated and had really no understanding of it. I was definitely looking at narcissism and traits and, and yeah, I, well, we’re taught about

[00:20:02] Dr. Chad Johnson: stop, drop, and roll. We’re taught, you know, like how to wash our hands. I mean, who’s taught, you know, how to prevent being manipulated in a narcissistic relationship.

Right, right.

[00:20:14] Dr. Eric Roman: Well, I just want to echo Reagan’s point like, um, so I have reframed my life. Right. through therapy, and I’ve discovered that like, I’m a narcissist magnet. I am. That’s why

[00:20:24] Dr. Chad Johnson: I knew I liked you.

[00:20:25] Dr. Eric Roman: Yeah, right? I, I, I am an extraordinary business partner, guide, support, relationship for narcissists. Like I’m ideal.

And I’ve actually read about this now. It caused me to reframe so many things. And, and, you know, Listen, people like to weaponize narcissism and talk about it really negatively. I think the courageous thing for us to do would just be to sit there and say, listen, it’s a trait. People are narcissists. It is.

And we vilify it, particularly when you’re not a narcissist and you’ve been hurt by them. But like, I got a lot of sins. I got a lot of stuff that I do wrong. I got a lot of ways that I’ve hurt people. And I would never want to put it out here in a manner that says like, damn the narcissists, you know, the

[00:21:06] Dr. Chad Johnson: Hitler’s of the world.

Right.

[00:21:07] Dr. Eric Roman: But so I’ve encountered this in two ways. Yeah. One, I’m a narcissist magnet. Two, I have coached now well over a hundred dental CEOs and stuff like that. And I’m amazed at how much narcissism shows up in partnerships. I’ve coached narcissists. I’ve coached people in relationships with narcissists.

And so I’ve had to do a ton of research. Like, by the way, search books on narcissist, holy moly, like the content base on this alone is ginormous, like, and I’ve read a bunch of them. Oh, it’s like, there’s tons. Um, side note, there is no one time. There’s a bunch of categories, subcategories of narcissists, weak narcissists, like fake narcissists, all these subcategories.

subcategories. Don’t go on that rabbit hole. Unless you want to discover that you had more narcissists in your life than you actually

[00:21:54] Dr. Chad Johnson: or, or, or Eric, is it possible? There’s a little narcissist in me.

[00:21:59] Dr. Eric Roman: Oh, so we’re going to call that, um, NSD narcissism spectrum disorder. Is that exactly what it is? I’m subclinical, but I’m there, baby.

Probably. Probably true. And you know, so, um, a lot of my life has been, is it necessarily a bad thing that I attract narcissists? Not maybe. How can that be a gift or a productive capacity? How can I learn to work well with narcissists? How can I learn to have the right controls of a relationship boundaries, correct boundaries, legal agreements that say the right things.

And like, You know, and recognizing it. So it’s not like, uh, don’t do this. It’s do it eyes wide open with a little bit of logic. And I have a, a coaching client I’ve worked with for years. That’s trying to exit a narcissistic like relationship. And it’s been really interesting because like first it triggers me.

Like when he talks about things that are happening, I’m like, Oh, I’ve been, Oh, I’ve been there too. But, um, but the logic is so different than what he would expect. And he’s like, wow, it’s really hard for me to hold that logic, but it’s so true. And so we just have to have the right tools. It’s like, you need your narcissism toolkit.

[00:23:08] Regan Robertson: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. That’s I did not think about it that way. You’re told. Yes. That’s our

[00:23:14] Dr. Eric Roman: book. Narcissist toolkit for dummies.

[00:23:16] Regan Robertson: It is,

[00:23:16] Dr. Eric Roman: I

[00:23:18] Regan Robertson: mean, you also just gave me a great paradigm shift. You said, you know, you can work with a narcissist if you have the proper boundaries in place. And to your point, Chad, you were talking about behaviors and the characteristics or the traits.

I think there’s arrogance, there’s the God complex, there’s narcissism. When I think of narcissism, I think about it in like the most negative way. But there are some areas where I’m sure it might benefit us. If you are an emergency room surgeon, you have to have confidence that’s unyielding because you’re there to do, you know, a specific job and you can’t question yourself.

There’s shades to this, right? There’s a lot of nuances around this. How do we define it? What’s a capital N narcissist? Weird. A lower, you know. Hold on. Are you

[00:23:59] Dr. Chad Johnson: almost saying like that, that giftedness? Could be an advantage to a time and place. Wow. But you’re right. I say, wow. And then it’s like, no, but you have a point.

[00:24:10] Dr. Eric Roman: Here’s a tool in the tool belt. When you’re in a relationship with a narcissist, the concept of winning has to change for you. What I’ve encountered time and time again, for me and for many others in those relationships, part of what it means for a narcissist is to be the center. Everything revolves around them.

The only value anyone has is in relationship to the value they create for the narcissist. Mike, even spouses, the books on being a spouse of a narcissist, like you should read those because as a spouse of a narcissist, your only value is how you make the narcissist feel or look or like all the things.

And so in the narcissist, as the center of the universe, right, winning, like is of utmost important. How others perceive. Something is of utmost importance. And so I’ll give you an example. Like when you’re in a partnership with a narcissist and you’re severing that partnership, what’s of utmost importance is that to the exterior world, it looks like the narcissist was in control in victory.

One, how this was such a great benefit for them, how it’s better for the future for them. All those things, which. Oh my gosh, that’s so true. It’s a perception. And so for us, for someone in relationship with a narcissist, this. We have to change our definition of what it means to win, and it’s one of the hardest things in the world, right?

Winning might simply be getting out of the relationship and making them look great. Making it look to the world like the narcissist is the victor. So in other words, humbling ourselves, Listen, I’m just not capable enough to be in this relationship with you. I’m going to be dragging you down and I’m going to hurt you.

I need to free you up like to be able to be your best at this and to make space for better partners than me. You know, like things along those lines, um, are really, really valuable. So I think what I’d say is we have to, it’s like we have to know what the real definition of victory is, but we know that the narcissist definition and we have to serve that

[00:26:01] Dr. Chad Johnson: whatever hold on, were you using the, were you using the tool?

It’s not you. It’s me. It was repackaged beautifully, but I was just like, yes. And then I realized that sounds like a lot like saying, it’s not you, it’s me, but let’s let you win better. But it was beautiful. Like, absolutely.

[00:26:19] Dr. Eric Roman: Yeah. And you know, and I, I think one of the things that I’ve learned, as long as I fight redefining what victory is.

I’ll never get what I want. I’ll never get anything. I’ll actually be bound and I won’t have what I’m able to do. I’ll be bound in a relationship that’s not going to be able to serve me. I have to redefine what victory is and that gives me the freedom, right? And you know, there’s something else nice about this.

Like I kind of want narcissists to win because I don’t want to knock them down a peg because you realize how destructive that is to their psyches. Like, I mean, it’s all about how they look. It’s all about how they carry themselves And I would feel horrible in a sense, like, I would feel horrible knowing that I destructed their concept of self because listen, they didn’t sign up at narcissism school and say, I want to be narcissist.

They just is what they is. And so, you know, kind of like, it’s kind of like a full circle relative to this emotion conversation. Like I want to serve you as best I can for who you are. I don’t like it. I don’t like what it does to other people that I love, but I’m going to, I’m going to hold space for you to just be a narcissist.

You know,

[00:27:21] Regan Robertson: well, it is taking a high road of epic proportions. It feels counterintuitive, but it makes so much sense because my experiences, yes, it’s absolutely gutting if they are not winning. And for my own personal experiences, the things that they will say and do is extreme and making me feel. terrible.

And no end.

[00:27:41] Dr. Eric Roman: Oh,

[00:27:42] Regan Robertson: no end. No, no, it’s, it’s horrific. And the people pleasing part of me definitely wants to make that go away. But in my previous experiences, my bravery in protecting myself has won out. So I’ve had to move forward. But yeah, lots of eggs broken along the way to think about it in the how can I make this as seamless as possible as kind as possible as compassionate.

That’s the word compassionate as possible. We are by allowing them to feel Like they are winning in that that is a true challenge. And I think for me personally, I have to be right with my like self worth and my self identity. So be stand in that and say, I’m making this decision. And then being, uh, open to holding that compassion for them and helping them walk through it.

[00:28:28] Dr. Eric Roman: Wow. What I just heard you say is that your relationships with narcissists have been major sources of growth for you.

[00:28:34] Regan Robertson: Yeah, they have and validation. You’re right. Yes. Validation. Yes.

[00:28:39] Dr. Chad Johnson: Thanks to all the narcissists out there in the world. You are making the world a better place. Yeah, you and you and you and you.

Winning, winning. It doesn’t feel good at the time. Before

[00:28:50] Dr. Eric Roman: we leave this though, I have my shower thought that I wanted to introduce you guys to relative to narcissism and a subcategory that I don’t think anybody’s talked about before. And I call it dental induced narcissism.

[00:29:02] Regan Robertson: Den.

[00:29:03] Dr. Eric Roman: Den. I’ve hired Several hundred dentists over the years.

I got my 10, 000 hours and I have known many more dentists. And let’s be honest about dental education, right? Dental education trains a God complex and you know better than people. You’re more important than everybody else, right? You’re more important than the people you hire. You’re smarter than your patients.

You have to know everything. You certainly know better. You must know everything. You must and you do. And like, people bow down at the throne of your glory when you walk into the operatory. Like, Do you know what we’ve really done? I always called it the God complex that we trained in. And that’s what, is that what doctor actually meant was a God complex?

Our society is throwing it back in our face right now, but like, isn’t it really ingrained and trained sense of narcissism, you’re the center of the universe, the entire office operates around you, hold on, put your name on the door, literally. Oh my gosh. Can I tell you how many times

[00:29:57] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: companies be willing to lend you millions of dollars,

[00:30:01] Dr. Eric Roman: super simple.

Right? Because you’re that important. You are just, like, you’re the center of Earth. And so, did people go into dental school because they I don’t think that I don’t think they go in wanting that. Uh, maybe some do. But I actually think that there was an induced Narcissism that occurs there and the cost like this two weeks ago, I was riding in the car with my 18 year old 18 year olds trying to figure out her life like now, I don’t know where we’re at right now, but becoming a dental hygienist was on the list.

Why was it on the list? They get a great income. Daddy’s like in the dental industry. He sure as heck can get me a job like this all works out. And I was like, Hey, where you at right now? Like she’s like, Oh, heck no. I’m dental hygienist. Yeah. I was like, huh? She’s like, dad, Reddit. I was like, Reddit? She’s like, yeah, I’ve been reading about it on Reddit and all the other places.

You guys run the most high drama, like, oxic industry on earth. I was like, you figured that out on Reddit? That was my secret. Like you figured that out on Reddit, but she was freaking right. Like I couldn’t even like, because having hired well over a thousand, probably over 2000 people, how many times did I hear people like, what was the reason for leaving?

I was in a toxic work environment, which 90 percent of the time meant that they were the toxic reason. But anyway, like we talk about it all the time. Is it possible that the toxicity? starts because of the dental induced narcissism. I’m just going to hold that thought and let it be there.

[00:31:25] Regan Robertson: I’m not a dentist and I have not attended dental school.

Where does this start and how do they start to preframe you? to getting this complex other than what culture tells us today, which you’re absolutely right. Your name is on the door. What do you think they,

[00:31:40] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: they, they beat you and they punch you in the face enough in dental school that when you get out,

[00:31:45] Dr. Chad Johnson: just for the record,

[00:31:48] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: well, they did back in the day.

Like I don’t want pre dental

[00:31:51] Dr. Chad Johnson: students hearing it going. They don’t actually that,

[00:31:53] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: that when you get out, you just want to be right about something. you were torn apart enough that it’s your turn now to be good at something and to be right about something. And of course, doctor is supposed to mean something in the community, right?

And so you start leveraging that and everybody that works for you, there are nothing, they don’t have the degree, they don’t have the intellectual acumen. Um, and so you might as well treat them as such. I think that’s the That’s where it

[00:32:26] Regan Robertson: starts. So they do not, if I hear you well, they don’t teach collaboration at all.

Do they instill a sense of curiosity and critical thinking?

[00:32:36] Dr. Chad Johnson: The good ones do. I think, you know, that’s, that’s another thing when we’re painting broad brush strokes. For example, I’ve told you before about Pascal Manier. Never took his, you know, courses at USC, but he inspires teacher of the year awards, you know, that he gets all the time because he is talking about inspiring the doctor to become the true sense of the word doctor, a teacher.

You know, and, and, uh, and someone who loves learning and collaborates and stuff like that. So I think collaboration is taught. It just depends what people want to hear and what they’re, you know, there’s a range of teachers, there’s a range of students to be fair. I don’t want to make it seem like it’s a knock on, but, but that quintessential old school bootcamp drill instructor of a dental school professor, that’s the kind of person that we’re, you know, like aiming this negative energy.

And

[00:33:24] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: I think it’s. I went to school. I think it’s different now. That’s how it was when we got out.

[00:33:31] Dr. Eric Roman: But I still think we’re trained to be the utmost authority. I think that’s the like, and I think medical training in general, what does it mean to be doctor? It means like, it doesn’t mean teacher. It means utmost authority.

It means, you know, best, but society has like, Proven we don’t. And that’s where there’s a divide. And

[00:33:52] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: that’s important, right? Because we want to be an authority. We want to be confident. Um, I had an associate that was not confident and should not appear as an authority. And there’s a difference between confidence and arrogance.

[00:34:05] Announcer: Yeah. Sure.

[00:34:06] Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Right. So they want, And make sure that we are confident in our knowledge, but not coming across as the ultimate godlike authority.

[00:34:14] Dr. Eric Roman: It’s really funny that you mention that. So for the past eight weeks, I’ve launched a program training associates, right? Training associates for groups and for practices that are struggling to get what they want out of their associates.

Associates aren’t happy, there’s turnover, all this stuff. And you know, in, in getting to know these associates, you just hit a nail on the head, Maggie. The associates. are scared to admit that they know they don’t know everything. They’re scared to admit to their overseeing doctor, their employer, they don’t know how to do this, how to be effective.

They don’t, they’re, they know that they were supposed to know how to diagnose and treat periodontal disease. They can’t admit. to their owner that they don’t and so they’re coming to me and I’m like, Hey, is it okay if we talk about they’re like, yeah, I’m just scared to admit that I don’t know that to my owner because I feel like my duty was to know.

And in some sense, they’re right. Cause that’s the whole system that we’ve built. Oh, you’re a doctor. So we don’t need to give you an examination on how to diagnose and treat perio or diagnosis and treatment plan. We don’t need to do any of that because you’re a doctor. Like, it’s like saying, you know, like, yeah, we don’t need to train you to fly the plane.

You have a, you have a license, so you ought to be able to fly the plane, except you’ve never flown a fricking jumbo jet. Right? Like that’s where we are. And so, uh, like it’s been hard for me to hear that, that they’re afraid to admit that they don’t know everything they felt like they were supposed to know.

[00:35:42] Dr. Chad Johnson: I hope my associate catches on that. I occasionally, like, I hope he overhears me when I say to a patient, I’ll say, do you know, like a lot of times. The doctor, the dentist is treated like a God. I’m not God. And I said, it sounds almost funny to say, doesn’t it? But let me just say, when you’re feeling something, I’m not saying that what you’re feeling isn’t there, but my human eye can’t pick up what it is.

And so the problems there, it’s just small enough that. I can’t detect it. And I don’t know what to do with that. And I’ve, I have some human tests and I can do some human things, but ultimately I don’t know everything about everything. I just don’t know. And it’s really cathartic to be able to tell a patient and just say, I have to say, I don’t know when this problem gets worse, come find me because I can find bigger problems than what you’re having.

But this problem, like as, as minute as it is, or, you know, undetectable other than the guess and check method, I said, which is horrible. What do we do? Just start pulling teeth. I can’t do that. So.

[00:36:36] Regan Robertson: I want to pull this into another episode, and I want to talk about compassion with Eric. If you’re, if you’re willing to be a guest again, Eric, we would love to have you because I think there’s a part two to this.

[00:36:45] Dr. Eric Roman: It would be my greatest joy. There’s a part four

[00:36:46] Regan Robertson: and five and six and seven

[00:36:48] Dr. Eric Roman: and eight and nine and ten.

[00:36:49] Regan Robertson: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Hey, guys

[00:36:53] Dr. Eric Roman: for having me. Dr. Eric

[00:36:54] Regan Robertson: Roman. Great to see you.

[00:36:56] Dr. Eric Roman: See you man.

[00:36:57] Regan Robertson: Thank you for listening to another episode of Everyday Practices Podcast.

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