Episode 185 – The Importance Of Relationships In Dentistry

“Your practice is about the relationships you create.” -Dr. Shawn Knorr

A lot of people aspire to be like Dr. Shawn Knorr. He’s a top-level producer who is always looking for the next level in his career but he wasn’t always the confident, caring clinician he is today.

“The first part of my career was not productive at all,” says Dr. Shawn. “My idea of production was to speed up the treadmill. My team was telling me I was going to lose patients because I was in such a rush that I wasn’t building relationships with them. I went faster and faster and then I reached the point of burnout.”

But then, a personal tragedy changed the trajectory of his life…he rediscovered how deeply he cared for his patients.

Says Dr. Shawn, “Part of my lack of production was that early in my career I was holding back. My treatment care was really safe. I wasn’t comfortable with my fees or treatment plans. I didn’t necessarily believe in the value of my work.” 

But then something remarkable happened. He realized that when you care about people more you get over the fear of presenting care.

We love to make your life easy! Join us for a heartfelt conversation as we unpack the importance of relationships in dentistry and how you can:

• Gain the confidence to diagnose everything you see
• Use your team to grow your practice
• Have hard conversations with patients that still honor the relationship

Never miss an episode! Subscribe on iTunes & Spotify. Visit us at http://www.everydaypracticespodcast.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Regan 0:00
Hi, Dr. Regan. Robertson, CCO productive dentist Academy here and I have a question for you. Are you finding it hard to get your team aligned to your vision, but you know, you deserve growth just like everybody else. That’s why we’ve created the PDA productivity workshop. For nearly 20 years PDA workshops have helped dentists just like you align their teams, get control of scheduling, and create productive practices that they love walking into every day. Just imagine how you will feel when you know your schedule is productive. Your systems are humming, and your team is aligned to your vision. It’s simple, but it’s not necessarily easy. We can help visit productive dentists.com/workshop that’s productive dentist.com/workshop to secure your seats now.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 0:46
Yeah, I would highly recommend any dentists doing it like the starting to take like photography of your cases and the beginning of a case like it, it changes the way you practice dentistry. And then there’s the level of dentistry that you see at the conference. Like it was pretty, it was pretty amazing like what some of the doctors are doing and like

Regan 1:12
Welcome to the everyday practices Podcast. I’m Regan Robertson, and my co host Dr. Chad Johnson and I are on a mission to share the stories of everyday dentists who generate extraordinary results using practical proven methods you can take right into your own dental practice. If you’re ready to elevate patient care and produce results that are anything but ordinary. Buckle up. And listen in.

Regan 1:40
Complete the picture here for listeners. We invited Dr. Sean Conner on our podcast today. Because Chad and I really want you to be able to see into the mindset of what we consider to be a very high producing professional, successful doctor who still feels like there’s a long ways to go. And so I think understanding your story, Shawn is really important for for us and for listeners, you know, to help us paint the picture of where you’re at today. And then where you want to go 510 years from now.

Dr. Chad Johnson 2:08
Yeah, and before you do that, let me ask is the case silent? Are you nor or nor

Dr. Shawn Knorr 2:13
it is silent. But it’s it’s easier to take an hour. So I wish it was gonna work because people don’t ever understand my My name is

Regan 2:24
Dr. Nora. Yep, there you go.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 2:25
There we go. Just making sure it’s all good.

Dr. Chad Johnson 2:30
We wanted to know, yeah.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 2:36
That’s pretty good. Yes. Well, I guess, just like starting off, like I did a residency at Hennepin County Medical Center, which I guess I highly recommend for any doctor out there to do a residency of this, they have the opportunity since high Oral Surgery component to it. And it was a level one trauma center. So I got a lot of exposure to some pretty intense situations and then also really need surgery. So I think that a confidence level from that really grew. And I think see can do that same thing for you. But I would say that’s I kind of started off on that pathway and joined a small practice, you know, out of residency, and it’s in a neighboring town. And I just remember the first time I talked to the doctors, like, what is the Hutchinson boy doing and glyco? You know, I was like, I don’t know, if my wife told me to get a jack

Dr. Shawn Knorr 3:39
so that’s kind of how it started off. And I would say that the early part of my career, like I was not productive at all, you know, like it was it when I look back, you know, like, I could compare myself to some of my friends and stuff like that. And I would say like, it was a little bit of a struggle, like, by I was I bought it bought the practice, like, maybe a year and a half and to be in there, and then the dentist slowly retired. And then when I bought it, I would just say that the numbers were tough, you know, as it’s like, the lawn was kind of hanging over my head and my, I don’t know, it was just it was just, it wasn’t always sunshine and rainbows. I guess. In a while, like, I would see that the practice was a very insurance driven practice, like we were only provider for one plan. But like we’re in a small town and like people with insurance would come to our office to they didn’t really have anywhere else to go, you know, and so like I was doing insurance based dentistry and like I like just, it was kind of a struggle and so like my idea at the time being inexperienced was like, well, let’s speed up the treadmill, you know, and it was like Because do more and more, and my staff like they’re there, they’re all a little bit more mature than me. And they’re like, you’re gonna lose patience, because you’re going too fast. You know, you’re not creating relationships and connections. And, you know, I appreciate that I had a great staff that actually felt comfortable, you know, being able to say that to me, but I didn’t pick it up right away. You know, it was, it was a slow process. And just kept running the treadmill faster and faster. And it like, I would say that I definitely reached a point of burnout, you know, like, yeah,

Dr. Chad Johnson 5:35
so we met at the February PDA workshop was, was that kind of where the tipping point was headed? You know, is is that when you found PDA? I mean, how did you how did you end up? Like, what was the breaking point that made you say, All right, that’s it? Well,

Dr. Shawn Knorr 5:57
I wouldn’t say that. I’ve been secretly stalking PDA for years, like I kind of got into Gary taxes. Oh, yeah, I think he does a great job puts out a lot of great content for free, which is amazing. And he just sort of saying he’s recommending his doctors to go to the PDA course. And I was like, Oh, I better look into this. So I don’t remember where and I got some of that stuff. But like, I think that a lot of what Dr. Baird said, this resonated with me. And I didn’t know, I just, I felt like I didn’t have the money to invest in a consulting. And so I just tried to slowly bring it into my practice, and it took a long time to start to bring in some of the elements. So it was a slow process. And, you know, like, the one I don’t know, like, the one thing that I think changed the trajectory of my career, and this my life in general is, I had, what I’m a father of five girls. And after our, after our second girl, we had a baby that she was born with, like a severe seizure disorder. And it was, it was, like one of those things that just basically, up ends your entire life, you know, because, like, for like, the first few days, we kind of thought something was wrong with her and, and, like, then all of a sudden, she started having seizures, and she was like, rushed to the Children’s Hospital in Minneapolis. And we spent two and a half weeks finding, you know, like, taking every test that we possibly could to see what was going on. And, like, eventually is like, we don’t well, this is we don’t have any answers for you. Like, she basically can’t sustain life. And so that was a, that was a kind of a tough thing. And, you know, like, yeah, it’s like one of those situations where it’s like, one of the hardest things in your life, but it also, it taught me and my wife, like a ton of things about what’s important in life. And there were so many people that just surrounded us with, you know, care and support and love. And it really, really offended just how I view the world and what was important to me. And I wish I could say that it was all up from that experience. But you know, it was kind of a rocky path. And, but it did it did, it did change how I related to people and and I

Dr. Chad Johnson 8:36
like through that experience a lot more humanity to get in it.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 8:39
Oh, yeah, without a doubt, like and so like, the, like the silver lining was that life is about relationships, and being true and like, and treating, treating people as you’d want to be treated, you know, like, that’s essentially what it is. And, you know, like, this guy and a PDA like, you know, hearing Dr. Barrett on his podcast and stuff like that, I don’t think I ever really appreciated the type of person that he was and what he exactly was talking about, but like this, like, going into the PDA conference, like it is a resounding your practice is about the relationships that you create, from top to bottom, you know, like from people that come to see you staff, you know, every single component and I think that it like until you met Dr. Parrot in person, like it was hard to really comprehend that I guess. And then the the other thing that I really liked about TD PDA is this that the group of people like, they seem like high quality people that like were genuinely concerned about where my practice was at and, you know, helping people like get better. You know, oral health, you know, like, I don’t know It wasn’t phony in any way. And I absolutely, I worked with another consultant. And I didn’t necessarily get that. And I walked away from that really, truly excited about what TDA offer. And it was really nice to see, I guess, you know.

Dr. Chad Johnson 10:18
So here’s what’s cool. Regan, I mean, honestly, when I first wrote Sean, and I said, Hey, would you, you know, is nice to meet you at the workshop? Would you come on our podcast? He was like, I mean, I will. He starts out, I would, you know, I wouldn’t be willing to do a podcast, but it made me nervous even just thinking about it. So like, maybe you have other people that, you know, like, might be better to listen to. When you hear this regen, what better of a person to hear their story. This is this rings true. Again, and again, how everyone thinks that it’s like, no, it’s the bigwigs down the street that should or you know, across the nation that should be getting these kinds of interviews and podcasts and stuff like that. And it’s like, no, it’s guys like you and me, that have great stories that we need to share. So Reagan, how’s that resonate with you? And you’ve heard that backstory?

Regan 11:18
Oh, well, everybody has a story. And I say that all the time. Everybody has a reason for why they’re where they’re, they are, where they’re at today. And, and I think that helps me, it helps me understand you better, Shawn, you know, hearing that about your daughter? How many years ago was that when that turn happened for you?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 11:39
So it was 2014. When she was born, she left lived about six and a half months. So February 1 2015. was when she passed away, unfortunately, but yeah, so it was a while ago, but it proud of it brought a lot of self reflections with it. That is for sure.

Regan 12:01
But it takes it takes a lot to it’s difficult to translate that through podcasts and interviews and everything to get down to that level to that really resonates on why we do what we do. And and I can’t say enough about I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, you know, people genuinely care about the patient health and being advocates for for patient care. I know, Dr. Matthew Standridge, which is a doctor that I am friends with on Facebook. He’s been to PDA before, he shared a story this morning with me. And it was about being really dogeared about some signs that pointed towards oral cancer. And they got the first opinion and it came back negative. And he followed his intuition and said I think you need to go through and you need to get another opinion like that. I could cry right now. That’s that is all relationship driven. That is you caring and you being passionate, and you owning it. And the second one came through and they caught it. So they were able to catch and said, Nope, it actually is cancer, we need to get you into treatment right now. We need advocates like that. Everywhere. Yeah, right all over the globe, we need that. And I think it’s a big deal. And it’s a hard mission. And I think that that we can get caught up in the numbers and the gross and all the elements that we have to say, but there’s an underlying current to that, in the pattern that you reflect me that I see in productive dentists that I’ve had the opportunity to meet, is they all have that same underlying current of care. It’s not just about how many patients it’s really what kind of impact Am I making?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 13:36
Yeah. Without a doubt. Yes. Yeah, it is. It is interesting. Just reflecting on where I’ve come from, where I’ve been, and I think, you know, like earlier in my career, like, it definitely was maybe a lack of confidence and stuff like that. And I would just, I would prefer to present treatment that I thought people would say yes to, and I wouldn’t necessarily be making a full, comprehensive diagnosis. And so my, my, my carrier kind of, yeah, this was a essentially, it was real safe. But it also you know, just going through like, thinking about what how do you be true to your patients like, I thank you for the like, you need to tell them ethically, like everything that’s going on in their mouth. And by holding back just because you don’t want your ego to be bruised a little bit. Because, like I found myself being in a selfish place and they like it was my own like I was in my own, I guess, like, ignorance of what was going on. But like, it took a life changing experience for me to be like, I need to treat my patients better, you know, like, like, it’s crazy. And I was scared, you know, like, I wasn’t comfortable with what my fees were, I wasn’t comfortable presenting big treatment plans, you know, like, I would do it occasionally. But like, I had, like, a severe guilt complex about it. And this, I didn’t necessarily believe in it. And it was strange. But like, as a, like, do I really care about this person in front of me? And like, do I cherish this relationship? It gets weird, like, when you start caring about people more, you get over that fear of saying, like, you know, I think we should do an only on this to this versus, you know, a big filling, you know, like, it’s like, small little conversations that I was tuning myself on, like, on a daily basis. And, and the patient, you know, like,

Dr. Chad Johnson 15:57
that, Bruce calls that like, he’s like, do I remember the patient the patient’s name from this morning? Like the new patient, you know, do I remember their name and stuff? And that’s convicting, because it’s just like, we see so many people, that regular people, let’s call them regular people don’t understand, you know, like the volume of, of human interactions that we have in a day, that are not just the superficial cashier, because the cashier probably sees more people than we do. But but but to actually, like, be like, so tell me about your genital herpes. I mean, well, I mean, we’re getting into on people’s health history. And I mean, so it’s not just like, cursory like, here’s your receipt. Here’s your Diet Pepsi. Yeah, this deep stuff. Totally.

Regan 16:47
Yeah. How did you how did you take, like, baby steps to making that leap from? I’m not really comfortable with that, because it becomes a value question. Yeah, I’ve done that myself for years. Like you don’t want to charge that because you can’t you just want to do it for free. I’ll just I’ll just do this for you or do this. And then also that that fear of I don’t want to really tell you everything that’s going on in your mouth, like Chad and I just recorded a private podcast that it’s just me and him. And we that was one of the tips that we had is can we be brave enough to just say, this is everything that I see? Yeah. So how did you take that leap? What I’m sure it was small, incremental changes over time? Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 17:28
I think some of it, like I’ve already said it, I think it’s this wanting to be true to people and relationships was the genesis of it. But then I would say, I just basically started reading books and, you know, dentistry and listening to podcasts, and, you know, different things like that. That is, I guess, there’s people that have walked the path. So you know, this becoming more familiar with it. And I kind of am this the junkie, when it comes to learning about, you know, business and dental businesses for that matter. So you pick up things, you know, and like, you hear, I don’t know, you hear some of the same things over and over again, and it starts to sink in. So I, I can’t necessarily say like, Haha, no, it’s been, it’s been a process of soaking it in for a number of years. I guess. For

Dr. Chad Johnson 18:16
the listeners, though. For the listeners sake, just know that Shawn is an ACD dentist, and I’m part of the ACD to and that, that speaks enough to me to know that you’re in the organization. You know, I don’t really care if someone’s accredited or not. Of course, that’s always great and cool. But the fact that you’re even in it tells me a little bit more about you. So when all ask you in a second year, but like I just wanted to preface it by saying when I signed up for the ACD it was at the recommendation of a dentist that was involved with it and the AEGD and I was just like, you know, cosmetic sounds kind of lame. And he’s like, Well, I did I was just like that you said that? Oh, yeah, cosmetics. I mean, Cosmetics is, is not a it’s a jazzy patient word. But to dentists, it can rub them wrong because what we do is not necessarily cosmetic, it should be aesthetic. And so there’s this it’s a semantics issue. But it’s kind of this drive between you know, like aesthetics and and cosmetics, Cosmetics is getting your nails and your hair done. And aesthetics has to do with form function. Everything you know, like natural anatomy. There’s something that says a little bit more about it. So I just said I just I have a problem with cosmetic dentistry. It just sounds lame. And he was like, Okay, I get where you’re coming from. But here’s the backstory and I thought this was interesting. He said the American Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry at in the 80s was already taken when when we first he was one of the founders. He was like when we first started the A CD, so we had to name it something. And this spelled out, basically, you know, like, near what it was, and I get your point. But his then then what he said was, my point is you need to go check out a CD, just check it out. So I went to one and I was like, I think it was 2014. Seattle. And, and I was like this, okay, I shouldn’t have been making fun of it. Because like, this is cool stuff. Like, these are good. High producers, these are good thinkers, they’re forward thinking. And they’re not just like, just mow the tooth down and put it slap on some, you know, pretty teeth. That’s not what it’s about. It’s actually a two fold in in a real simplistic regard it number one, the photography to be able to diagnose and then sell your case and market it and brand yourself different. But then also, how do you do conservative dentistry that is hyper critiqued to bring up your level of, of anatomical, efficiency, proficiency, you know, everything like that. So materials, bonding science, like all that stuff, is there. And so Shawn, what’s, what’s your take on the ACD? And what’s meant for you?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 21:21
Yeah, well, I would say that, I probably had some of the similar feelings as you and your guides, and I didn’t really know. Like, what the it was all about. But all I can say is after diving into it, I would highly recommend any dentists doing it like the starting to take like photography of your cases and the beginning of a case like it, it changes the way you practice dentistry. And then this the level of dentistry that you see at the conference, like it was pretty, it was pretty amazing, like what some of the doctors are doing and like, I thought it was pretty good, you know, and after, like, taking pictures of stuff, and yeah, evaluating your own case, and then seeing what some of these other doctors were doing. It’s just like, Man, I can improve my game a lot, you know,

Dr. Chad Johnson 22:16
international speakers, not just Midwest or not just in your state, you know, some good guys, but to actually have, like Dr. Coachman from Brazil, come up and talk to you to actually have a class of 30 people where, you know, Pasco Manya is teaching composites, I mean, like, stuff like that, where it’s just like, it’s amazing to have the huge names.

Regan 22:41
I have known you, Chad for years.

Dr. Chad Johnson 22:43
I’ve ever heard you talk about my secret treasure pass, come on, you know, and

Regan 22:47
I’m so happy because I think it is important to have to have crushes. My big joke was one of my previous mentors. Rick Epting, Rhodes Scholar, incredible man played the 12 string guitar, was a great songwriter had bands, and he was really inspired by you hoody Menuhin, which is a famous violinist. And so the inside joke for years have been oh my gosh, they’re the hoody menu and of marketing or whatever thing that I’m nerding out on that so this is my new this is my new person, we will know our inside joke will be Pascal.

Dr. Chad Johnson 23:18
Funny Yeah, people can do Pascal manye style dentistry of aesthetics. You are set for life. I mean, but go ahead, Shawn.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 23:29
Well, no, I like after after like, watching it or being in his lecture. Like I went back to the office and like somebody with a beautiful smile came in, you know, like, you do your exam, and it’s like, oh, everything’s good. But I want to sit there and like front teeth for a while. I’m like, Okay, what’s that little contour there? Yeah. And you know, those Bama lines and like, where’s the, you know, the incisal translucency and stuff. And I was like, this is a thing of beauty. You know, and that, like, I’d be done with my examiner and like, you have beautiful teas.

Dr. Chad Johnson 23:59
Absolutely. And even the NAACP, you know, to go a step further and be like, do you mind if I were to photograph your teeth? basket that way would that not be flattering to a patient would be like, Oh, I guess you could you know,

Dr. Shawn Knorr 24:15
I’ve thought about it. Like it’s it’s gonna be weird.

Regan 24:19
I didn’t know as a patient that this is a real this is a real actual thing. You guys actually look at teeth this way. I know I love teeth. Like I’m pretty passionate about teeth not to that level. I had no idea that this is real but when I go to see my dentist and he says Your teeth are just beautiful. He really means it doesn’t he’s not just saying something so yeah. So what is so what is next for you in your journey? Then Shawn, what are you you’ve you’ve come leaps and bounds. It sounds like through your whole entire career. You’ve had things that have shaped you and made your decisions the way that you are. What is next for you?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 24:57
What is next for me? Well Um, as far as like, practice throw us and just where I’m at with my team. Like, I think the thing that I that I was so attracted to go to the PDA conference was that, like, yeah, I was very familiar with all the Dr. Baird talks about and I have been trying to incorporate it in my practice, even before going into the conference. And I just really well, this as you become more experienced, I think you realize how crucial and important that your team is, like, my time is extremely limited, and like I’m doing dentistry all day long. And it is extremely rewarding and fun, but also stressful. And, I mean, like, people need dentistry sort of thing. So like, what drives my practice is the team that supported me and like this last, which is this crazy, like this last year? Our practice from over the pandemic was, I guess, prior, it grew 50%, like in one year, which is this, and I, and I think it was this, like bringing my team along and getting on the same page. And like, Well, I think getting closer the way Dr. Baird set up his practice. And, like, it’s crazy how much the team is involved in it, and what they’re capable of doing to grow our practice, like, and that’s why I wanted to bring like, I wanted to bring all my team members, a couple of them couldn’t come but I met

Dr. Chad Johnson 26:34
them. What are you getting more pushback from admin or from like, clinical side?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 26:42
So well, admin, I guess. They can’t wrap their head around with the way Dr. Baird schedules his day to production. Yeah, yeah, they, like they say issues. I need some help with that, too. But I guess that but they did an amazing job, we came back and like, like, Okay, we got to leave Dr. unhorsed schedule open for these big, you know, cases and stuff like that. And

Dr. Chad Johnson 27:10
they like to be said, though, Shawn, I’ll tell you something that, you know, to make sure that listeners get it, the biggest hang up that I had was, wait a second, I can drop an implant in 20 minutes, you want me to block off, for example, if I’m getting paid $2,000. And and let’s say I’m doing 500 an hour, you want me to block off four hours? Technically, the answer is yes, yeah. But then if you have someone call saying, hey, I need this tooth bowl, like I’m in a lot of pain, if you fit them in, or number two, at that point, then your main objective is to go spend quality time in your exams, building rapport, and diagnosis and treatment plans with the patients. And then you can also do little nickel dime stuff. So if there’s an occlusal composite that needs done, so in other words, what I’m trying to say is you can break the rule with appointments, but we’re talking about actually the ahead of time scheduling. So if someone needs a denture adjustment, and you’re done with that implant, and you blocked off for hours, you’re done in 20 minutes, let’s just say because you did it guided, it was a super easy to, you did it in 20 minutes or 30 minutes, you can put that in at half an hour or an hour later, you know, to see that patient or to take care of a console or something like that, because that’s more diagnostics. So it’s important to know, that doesn’t mean that nothing else can ever go in that four hour block. Your main goal, though, is that you’re not so overbooked. That you’re you’re trashing data implant appointment with five surfaces a composite right next to it. And then you’re also trying to run and get five exams done that that hour, and you want hygenist is gone. So you have to do a clean 112 year olds teeth. You know, it’s like, it’s not supposed to be that way. So in other words, there are rules and ways that you can break those rules, and giving your team the permission to start to understand the nuances of that, then it’s not just like, well, I guess we’ll just block off 40 hours because large it’s like, no, not quite.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 29:26
Yeah. Yeah. But I don’t know. Yeah, I would say I was impressed with the way our front office actually responded to it. They were very inquisitive and like, wanted to solve it and so it was nice. The one thing like that our practice could use some growth on and I’ve been trying to gently nudge is or, or hi Janice, or I guess. Well, that’s when I sat down with them. I like to our clients health Okay, before the PDA conference, like it was your hygiene as the most potential for growth, and I knew that already, like, I kind of gave up on it a long time ago this like, I’m just like, I’m fine. Like, I’m busy, I’m doing well, I’m doing the dentistry that I love to do, you know, sort of stuff. But after there, like, you really could do more here, it was kind of like, okay, I need to go back to this. And yeah, it kind of reinvigorated me to, I guess, take a hygiene a little bit more seriously. And I, I’ve been talking to my hygienist about doing like, or, you know, salivary Didac diagnostics, and using the carry free system and doing, you know, caries risk assessment and taking pictures and, you know, like a very complete full exam and like it, there’s a lot of resistance to it. And I’ve been talking about price for 10 years about improving it. And it just never really changed all that much. And we slowly have been making improvements. And it’s great. And it was nice to go to the PDA conference. And they’re like, they’re just basically drove home what I was already trying to talk. So it’s like, like it like reinforced things I’ve been talking about for several years. And, like,

Dr. Chad Johnson 31:25
liberating.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 31:27
Yeah, so it was really nice to hear this. Like I like I want to do like whole body health, you know, sort of thing. And I want our patients to be active participants in their house. And I want to have a preventive base model. I like it drives me crazy to think about like, I don’t want to be a twosome mechanic, you know, I don’t want to just fix people when they’re broken, I want to be there. I know, I’ve talked to their hygienist. I’m like, I want to be a cheerleader for somebody’s oral health, I want you to be doing backflips down the hallway about getting them excited about you know, using a Waterpik and stuff like that. And it’s it’s been slow and go like, but they’re coming along. And it was really, really nice to go to, to bring them there. And to see some really passionate people about, you know, some of those areas. And yeah, this

Regan 32:17
meeting, this is completely fascinating to me, because my assumption for a lot of times is that it’s the opposite, that it is the hygienist saying no, we need to look at the oral systemic connection. We need to bring in the carry free, we need to do this. And the doctor says no like that. No,

Dr. Chad Johnson 32:32
I think you’re right. I think that does happen. It happens to be this way, don’t you think? I mean, Shawn, you hear that there are hygenist that are like that. But then there the dentists drag their feet that does exist. Okay. The other way around?

Regan 32:48
Yeah, I wouldn’t be jumping up and down. If you were my doctor, I’d be like, yes, let’s do this. So I’m wondering, what do you think the resistance John was from? Just that resistance to change? Or what were their reasons for kind of not wanting to introduce some of these new elements?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 33:05
I’ve pondered long and hard on what it is. And if you can tell me, I would love to hear it. Right, you know, like, the thing that, like, my hygienists are amazing people, they like they, they are great with relationships and the strength of our practice. Like, they’re the, they’re the backbone of it, like I’m a super social person. And like, I’m, I’m like, you like I have this, like, I tried to say, like, you have to make up for my failings, you know, you guys have to create these relationships. Yeah, you’re I’m not terrible. But you know, like, I just think they’re really, really good at it. For the hygenist. Like, I say, like we need, you know, you guys are our lifeline for the relationships with our practice. And I would say that, that’s maybe a little bit of I’m not, that’s not my strong suit, and I’m trying to grow in that aspect. So they do a really, really good job. And they bring patients back and they get them to say yes to a lot of treatment. I think that some of where maybe some of the resistance comes is that we live in a like a small town. It’s a you know, I’d say the people that come to us or get to know it really well. And I think like offering high level of service and high products, sort of like care stuff can come off as a little like pretentious, maybe like. Sure. I like I think that if they feel like they, if they push too much on them, that they’re not going to keep coming back to us and I think that they really, really want people to come back to us and just is great is

Dr. Chad Johnson 35:01
to keep good relationships, at the cost, maybe even of Brit broaching the subject of good health. You want to broach the subject of good health to make the patient healthier. And therein lies maybe the conflict. The interesting thing, though, that to remember from PDA principles is like I always tell my team, listen, if someone says no to what we have to offer about a solution to one of their problems, that’s fine. We won’t broach the subject again. And I’ll even ask the patient, I’ll say, Are you wanting to hold off on that tooth? It seems like your risk tolerance is a little bit higher on that, you know that you’ve in the past couple years said that you kind of wanted to wait until that was more of an issue for you. Is that okay? Because I don’t want to overly bother you, for example, with Invisalign stuff, you know, hey, I still noticed, you know, these are there’s a good amount of crowding. But I don’t want to even like discuss it. If that’s not a concern to you is, are you still kind of wanting to put that on the backburner? It’s a nice way of just broaching the subject. But then leaving it there. Because if they say, oh, you know what, I probably actually, I won’t ever get this addressed. Unless it got like super worse or something like that, then especially like, well, now we know, that’s okay. It’s not a bad thing. And so just giving that you know, where it’s like, we, it’s from the book, Crucial Conversations, where instead of being adversarial, you against me, it’s your you and I are just looking at this problem. And we’re assessing how to how we should manage it. And whether it’s a concern to you or not. If it’s not, then now I know, we’ll make a note of that. And maybe we’ll broach it again in a couple years. So, you know, giving your hygenist permission to do that. Read and go,

Regan 36:53
Well, you just really hit on something important for me, remember, I’m paying I’m playing the patient in this whole entire episode, which makes me very happy. There is a important conversation, there’s the one are you willing to wait, like we see this, you could do a whole you could do a partial, you could wait, we can do it in phases, but there’s the financial element of it, too. And I think that this deserves a lot of attention. Because if you just do, do you want to address this today? Or is this not important to you? There needs to be an understanding of what you’re financially going to have to deal with down the line? Should you choose to Wait, should you not be preventative? Or should you decide to hold off until it goes to failure point, and that I have an assumption will be quite a shock to some people. When they get to that end of the line.

Dr. Chad Johnson 37:38
For example, I’ll say, Listen, dentistry is expensive, or super expensive. There’s there’s rarely ever anytime that something in dentistry is cheap, unless you’re buying fluoridated toothpaste, which that’s debatable, even, you know, expensive, but so when we’re talking about a, you know, crowning this tooth, if we ended up having to wait and then pull it, we’re talking 5000 bucks, if we crown it right now, we’re talking 1500. So one’s expensive, one’s way more expensive. Now, both are doable, if pulling the tooth is what you want to do. And you’d rather do that versus root canal treatment, or you’d rather do that, and maybe just see if you can go without the tooth. They’re cool with me, you know, but I just want you to know, you know, that we can do it for this price. And I also occasionally will say, you know, I even imagine if this was $2, you know what you would do you would get this fixed, but it costs time and money to get this to fix, right? You’ve got to take time off work, you’ve got to be sore from the, you know, numbing, and all that stuff. So I get it. But man, if these were $2 a piece, these five crowns that we need to take care of shoot, we wouldn’t be wasting time on this conversation. We just be doing it. It is expensive. So let’s find a way to make this worth your while. And that’s the point where you can also talk whenever people hear expensive they go, you should talk investment. It’s like yes, of course. But I just talk real with my patients. I just go I understand that you’re seeing this as an expensive visit. And I acknowledge it. Yes, it is.

Regan 39:15
You should say investment and you should say decision. It’s their decision. I like that. I feel like you do a great job, putting it in their court and saying this is what I see. And this is the options but it’s your ultimate decision. You own that decision.

Dr. Chad Johnson 39:29
Yep. And I think Shawn, that’s when the hygienist just know that it’s like no, he never puts pressure on he just is simply asking, and if you demonstrate that, you know and talk about that maybe on your lunch break, you know, lunch, lunch and learn kind of hours and stuff you’re like, Listen, if someone says no to Invisalign, if someone says no to veneers, if someone says no to a filling, for now, it’s just like that’s their call, and I don’t mind but what I hate is five years from now to find out that the patient said, Well wait back when you first saw me and 2022 Why didn’t you bring this up? Well, I didn’t want to hurt your feelings. That’s right. That’s lame. So we want to bring it up now. So that way you’re in charge of choosing.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 40:17
Yeah. That is very good advice. And I guess, you know, it’s interesting. Like, I would say, my agent is like, tolerance for presenting and treatment to patients has grown in the last, you know, a couple of years. And, you know, like, we’ll talk about quadrant dentistry. And whereas before, I would say, we’d say like, oh, it’s the crown of the year club, you know, sort of thing, like, which crown Are you going to do this year, but now, like, you talk to people about like, well, we got two crowns. And you know, I got a I only on this tooth, and the patients will come back, like, you know, that actually works really well. I got some money in HSA, and, you know, like that all sudden, like, these excuses that I used to make in my head, and I know my hygienist did. Like, it’s yeah, like, all of a sudden, we’re hearing people like, yeah, I just want to get that done. And it’s kind of eye opening. And it’s good for us, and it’s good for the patient. And then the patients are affirming that, you know.

Dr. Chad Johnson 41:16
So, Reagan, I think, probably about an hour and a half ago, because this conversation is going great, but it seems like a long time ago, you asked the question. So Shawn, where do you see yourself? In 10 years? I don’t know where we got sidetracked with it, it’s not a put down where we’ve gone is amazing. But tell me, like so in 10 years, what’s what’s your 10 year plan?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 41:39
Um, well, I you know, I guess this, like the meaning and purpose of what I’m doing like this, like, I want to help people and I want to bring, like, this is something I came up with, like, just the mission is like, you want to like beautiful smiles, you know, create health and just change lives. And I have maxed out and like, like, I’m busy all the time. Like, I don’t have any gaps in my schedule, and I got people waiting for treatment. And I would say that now, I’m bringing on some people around me to help and like we’re growing in that sense, which is wonderful. And I think we’re helping more people. And yeah, like the one asset, we didn’t talk about this my other practice, which is like 15 miles south east of us is a is in Arlington, Minnesota. And that practice is like a medical assistants like Medicare type of practice. And I intentionally set it up that way. And we have a dental therapist, and then a dentist there and then two hygienists. And it is like a very unique practice. And, like, that was another thing that like my daughter, like I wanted to give back to the world after, like, experiencing that, like I, there’s a practice that came available to dentists or that consoles practice and you want his son was actually a dentist and called me up and he’s like, Would you ever reconsider buying my dad’s practice certain things. Like I saw, like, I ended up with this practice, then I don’t know. And I was like, well, let’s give back to the community sort of thing. And I guess that part of my life I don’t like I kind of feel open as maybe like, my family situation and get secure and we send kids to college and stuff like that, that potentially could grow. You know, like, like, it’s not profitable to be in that realm brings its challenges. But the clinic does really well, you know, and so, like that feeder

Dr. Chad Johnson 43:54
program to your other one.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 43:57
Um, we get some patients it’s not it’s not a huge run, no, like the people that like there’s people that drive from, you know, an hour hour and a half just they go there to get fillings and extractions done and stuff like that. So it’s, it’s unique by the patient population. And I would say that like the people that it feeds from is probably maybe the more the cash patients that go to that clinic and because they’re seeing a dental therapist and then my other the other doctor that there she’s, she does great in this situation she’s in but she likes to take out teeth and do removable and to that’s where her wheelhouse is so like if they get some of the cash patients there. They, they, I would say those are the people that make their way over to do implants and crowns and you know, different things like that and root canals. So now, I would say it’s not a feeder.

Dr. Chad Johnson 44:58
And I was just kind of curious. Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 44:59
It’s interesting. Yeah, no, but it really, really fulfills a niche in our community. Like I say, it’s a great thing. Like I have people that are in like, you know, I don’t know why like a person that goes to church, she’s a lawyer she, like is in child custody cases and stuff like that. And she just came up to me, and she’s like, you know, it’s such a great thing that you have this this other clinic, because now we have a place to send these children to, to get dental care, you know, so, yeah, so it touches a unique part of, I guess, the people that don’t always get care. So,

Dr. Chad Johnson 45:36
yeah. Alright, so I have one final question. But Ragan Do you have any, or should I just?

Regan 45:43
I have some homework for Shawn?

Dr. Chad Johnson 45:46
Let’s Yeah. Yeah, I’ve

Regan 45:47
never done that before. Yeah, you’ve really moved me, thank you for the time, I could talk with you a long time, I think I’m really moved by your passion and your commitment to care. My homework for you is, is to I love the bravery of saying, I see everything that’s in your mouth. If you think five years and 10 years down, you’re already doing great things, and you’re gonna continue to do great things. What do you see, in your practice right now, the you know, is going to have to shift in order for you to make the impact you want. And I think you’ve already started that. I think you’re thinking through that. But if you have journaling time, take that through and calm any sound, self doubt that you have, I think you’re doing what I see doctors doing, you’re surrounding yourself with the support you need to be successful. And stay the course and you will win.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 46:44
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yes. All right.

Dr. Chad Johnson 46:47
So here’s my question to wrap up. Who’s your Yoda?

Dr. Shawn Knorr 46:51
Who’s my Yoda? Um, that was a good question. Huh? Who’s my Yoda? Yeah, yeah, I really, this is interesting. I would have to say it’s my wife. Excellent. So, so yeah, she is a person that can be brutally honest with me and like, like, I don’t I don’t know how your relationship is with your wife. But I, I would say I tend towards excess. And I want to keep striving and growing and all these things. And sometimes I get off on a pathway that that maybe isn’t constructive to live in a full and complete life. And I would like to think I’m a family man and that I love my wife and I love my children. And sometimes when you’re, you know, like having a blast, you know, practicing dentistry it’s, it’s a, it’s easy to lose sight of things, you know. And yeah, so she everyone smile, gives me a nudge and

Dr. Chad Johnson 48:07
keep the main thing.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 48:09
Yes. Which is it? Which is great to have a nice. Well, that

Dr. Chad Johnson 48:13
is very sweet of you to say that. I liked your like how you thought about it for a little while to, but that you came up with her Well done. Well, Reagan, tell me this wasn’t like a sacred interview. It was very cool. Sean, thank you for inviting us into your world.

Dr. Shawn Knorr 48:35
But no, thank you. This was very fun for me. And I got really excited about doing the podcast. So I appreciate you guys as well. Thank you. Good.

Dr. Chad Johnson 48:42
This was fantastic Regan closing thoughts.

Regan 48:47
Just this is gonna be one of our best podcasts of 2022. And we’re only into April. So thank you, Sean for your time. I would love to I would love to connect in another year. I’d love to see how you feel in another year, and what progress has happened and what you’ve learned along the way, because that to me, it’s the journey. And we’re not we’re imperfect beings. So I would love to see the lessons you’ve learned and what you’ve taken away from it and how you’ve grown. Thank you for listening to another episode of everyday practices podcast. Chad and I are here every week. Thanks to our community of listeners just like you and we’d love your help. It would mean the world if you can help spread the word by sharing this episode with a fellow dentist and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share? Or feedback on how we can make this podcast even more awesome. Drop us an email at podcast at productive dentists.com And don’t forget to check out our other podcasts from productive dentist Academy at productive dentists.com/podcasts See you next week.